FSD removed

[Bikeman]

All these incidents of Tesla removing FSD functionality from pre-owned cars that had a value added feature at time of new delivery and intended value to resale is souring me on buying FSD on a Y next season. Will the next owner years from now have that feature, or not? Who knows. Tesla needs to state that purchased FSD is temporary and only available to the original new car owner. FSD sure doesn't seem to add any value to a car being bought used if the dice rolls the wrong way and it disappears.

 

[dk10438]

you're misquoting me. Tesla has every right to remove something they own,but if it's on a car owned by anyone else, taking something away is theft. Theft is still theft when it's removed by software and isn't an excusable crime just because it was easier to commit than breaking and entering, and if Tesla "accidentally" leaves it on a car they have sold without accounting for it in price, they still sold it that way and the option is legally sold. This apues to FSD or wheels equally, stealing your wheels post sale is just as illegal. It's up to Tesla to make sure they price their product appropriately because after that first sale goes through they can't do a thing about it without asking the current owner for permission. Without permission removal is theft.

If they aren't training their delivery staff properly, they need to fix the problem not resort to post sale theft. Inspection is the duty of bothbuyer and seller.

I disagree. So if you purchased some items from a company and the itemized invoice for your items was $100.00 but when you received what you ordered plus a couple of other things, do you own these extra items even though you never paid for them? If you sell your car but you leave your laptop with all of your personal information and/or work files do they now belong to the new owner of the car? What about if a bank accidental credits your account and doesn't realize it for 3 months. Did that money actually become yours? I'm not an attorney but somehow I don't think so. I think they'd just yank it out of your bank account. If someone sells you a car with stolen wheels on it, the wheels don't belong to you, they belong to the victim of the theft and the original owner is entitled to have them returned to him.

If FSD or any other option was left in or on the car, but it wasn't part of the MVPA, I don't think purchaser is legally entitled to keep it and I'm not sure that there's any sort of timeframe in which Tesla needs to recover their "property", IP or otherwise.

In the OPs original question, if the the original owner of the car paid for FSD then I agree Tesla has no claim to disable software features and it's theft. If the original owner never paid for the features, they weren't his to sell in the first place.

 

[r1200gs4ok]

I disagree. So if you purchased some items from a company and the itemized invoice for your items was $100.00 but when you received what you ordered plus a couple of other things, do you own these extra items even though you never paid for them? If you sell your car but you leave your laptop with all of your personal information and/or work files do they now belong to the new owner of the car? What about if a bank accidental credits your account and doesn't realize it for 3 months. Did that money actually become yours? I'm not an attorney but somehow I don't think so. I think they'd just yank it out of your bank account. If someone sells you a car with stolen wheels on it, the wheels don't belong to you, they belong to the victim of the theft and the original owner is entitled to have them returned to him.

If FSD or any other option was left in or on the car, but it wasn't part of the MVPA, I don't think purchaser is legally entitled to keep it and I'm not sure that there's any sort of timeframe in which Tesla needs to recover their "property", IP or otherwise.

In the OPs original question, if the the original owner of the car paid for FSD then I agree Tesla has no claim to disable software features and it's theft. If the original owner never paid for the features, they weren't his to sell in the first place.

I think that's what the OP is saying.....the original owner purchased the FSD and sold the car to another person......then Tesla came along and took it back.....I do not believe this is legal

 

[Akikiki]

r1200gs4ok, OP is not sure if first owner paid for it.

 

[r1200gs4ok]

r1200gs4ok, OP is not sure if first owner paid for it.

uh-oh.....I stand corrected then.....sorry.....that changes things

 

[Akikiki]

That's certainly okay. No biggie. It easily gets confusing.

 

[r1200gs4ok]

That's certainly okay. No biggie. It easily gets confusing.

 

[MP3Mike]

You don't need proof it was paid for on a Monroney to get it restored. Just that you had it when you bought the car and they took it away without your permission. Buying it with the features included is proof enough that you paid for it, and since you owned it when it was removed Tesla had to have your permission to take it away (which you would remember).

So you are saying that if Tesla enables a FSD trial on a car and the owner sells it while the trial is active Tesla no longer has the ability to ever turn that feature off? (Since the new owner took possession while the feature was active.) Yeah, I don't think so.

 

[Chaserr]

I disagree. So if you purchased some items from a company and the itemized invoice for your items was $100.00 but when you received what you ordered plus a couple of other things, do you own these extra items even though you never paid for them? If you sell your car but you leave your laptop with all of your personal information and/or work files do they now belong to the new owner of the car? What about if a bank accidental credits your account and doesn't realize it for 3 months. Did that money actually become yours? I'm not an attorney but somehow I don't think so. I think they'd just yank it out of your bank account. If someone sells you a car with stolen wheels on it, the wheels don't belong to you, they belong to the victim of the theft and the original owner is entitled to have them returned to him.

If FSD or any other option was left in or on the car, but it wasn't part of the MVPA, I don't think purchaser is legally entitled to keep it and I'm not sure that there's any sort of timeframe in which Tesla needs to recover their "property", IP or otherwise.

In the OPs original question, if the the original owner of the car paid for FSD then I agree Tesla has no claim to disable software features and it's theft. If the original owner never paid for the features, they weren't his to sell in the first place.

MVPA plays no part of it, if teslasold the car in X configuration, all X is paid for. It's Tesla's fault for not pricing appropriately, and Tesla's crime for trying to steal wheels they already sold out if this guy's garage.

Your MVPA doesn't list everything in your car, but this doesn't mean Tesla can come and steal your windows simply because they aren't listed - if Tesla forgot to price windows into the car it's not your fault, you agreed ontheir final sale price and they accepted your payment for the car as they delivered it to you.

 

[dk10438]

MVPA plays no part of it, if teslasold the car in X configuration, all X is paid for. It's Tesla's fault for not pricing appropriately, and Tesla's crime for trying to steal wheels they already sold out if this guy's garage.

Your MVPA doesn't list everything in your car, but this doesn't mean Tesla can come and steal your windows simply because they aren't listed - if Tesla forgot to price windows into the car it's not your fault, you agreed ontheir final sale price and they accepted your payment for the car as they delivered it to you.

You pretty much ignored every example that I cited, I guess you're a believer of finders keepers losers weepers? Possession is 90% of the law? Most people stopped believing these statements when they left grade school, LOL.

MVPA lists the car and all the additional options which cost additional money and if you didn't pay for the options, they don't belong to you.

So tell me this, you file your taxes and you get a refund from the government and they send you a check. Unfortunately, you get audited and they find out that instead of a refund you owe the government money. Are you gonna say tell the govt that they sent you the money so it belongs to you now??? A bank accidentally credits your account which is also discovered through an audit and they pull the funds of your account. You're gonna tell me that they snuck into your bank account and "stole" your money??

 

[Chaserr]

Yes, you did ignore every example I cited.

>MVPA lists the car and all the additional options which cost additional money and if you didn't pay for the options, they don't belong to you.

This is legally incorrect. MVPA lists the car as you purschased it, but does not list all options. For example, your window glass isn't on there. Delivery is a 2-way street, which is why you should inspect and insist Tesla fix the many things they screw up, and Tesla should inspect and make sure they've priced their product appropriately and delivered what they thought they were selling. Tesla's poor QC is why you're having trouble defending their mistakes. You own the car you were delivered - the manufacturer is going to have to pay to take back your windows if they think they undercharged you for them years later. "Finders Keepers" might be something you hope will stand in court, but the reality is Tesla sells their cars as delivered, asserts, and must stand behind. They have the option to uninstall things post sale from cars they own, but theft from cars they do not own is not legal.

Here's another example for you to ignore: If you believe what you're claiming, you believe Tesla can legally steal Autopilot from every 2014 Autopilot equipped car in existence, as well as from months of 2015 autopilott equipped cars. Why? Because nobody knew what Autopilot was. Tesla didn't put it on the MVPA; they were trying to sell inventory cars and didn't have Autopilot ready so it wasn't mentioned or listed. Making it perfectly legal to steal right now, right? Tesla didn't turn on Autopilot for more than an ENTIRE YEAR after they started installing it in cars. For a substantial amount of time, people were buying Autopilot without even knowing it. They have no paperwork establishing it on their MVPA. Defend why you do or do not believe this theft is legal. It's no different than what they factually alredy steal, and is just another hypothetical source of repeat income for them to get from existing owners if it's not a crime.

The same is true of many more things Tesla has improved - they add the hardware without any mention of it on MVPA. I see where you're going with this line of defense - establishing so many more things for Tesla to steal, even hardware like cameras and MCU2 or Hardware 3 computers from cars that were built with no mention of it on the MVPA. But I don't think you're going to win in court, counselor. Why is it legal for Tesla to steal Autopilot from every 2014 Model S ever made? Because it wasn't on the MVPA like you claim? No. Tesla agreed to the sale as they sold every one of those vehicles. They were not coerced, cheated, or stolen from. They agreed to the sale under the same terms as the buyer.

I would never let Tesla file my Taxes and I don't recommend you do it either; they are not trustworthy and would probably screw up your finances even worse than you've already suggested you believe they will.

 

[MP3Mike]

This is legally incorrect. MVPA lists the car as you purschased it, but does not list all options. For example, your window glass isn't on there.

The window glass isn't an option.

 

[Chaserr]

I didn't acknowledge your single example because it was so asinine.

Insults don't make the law become "asinine" but I can understand why you turn to personal attacks when the law is clearly against you. A sLiar Liar put it, "It's devastating to your case"

Since you believe the MVPA is non binding

Clearly I don't, but since you say it I can only assume you do, which explains why you would think Tesla can change what they delivered years after sale is final.

>Since you believe the MVPA is non binding and the configuration of the car as it leaves the lot now belongs to the purchaser, I'd like to know your thoughts on this. Say the purchaser elected to have option "X" enabled. He's so excited about the car he doesn't check to see if it's turned on. Several months he realizes option X isn't enabled. This is the reverse of what we've been arguing. Are you saying the purchaser isn't entitled to option X cuz he forgot to test it before delivery and now it's tough crap? By your argument, the car left the lot and both the purchaser and seller agreed to the sale so he's not entitled to option X or the money he paid for it.

Good! You finally start to understand with these questions. If you can prove you own something, you own it. If it's omitted and you can prove it shouldn't be, you still own it. If it's included with something you've already purchased you can prove you already owned it. In both cases, you own something you don't have, in one example something omitted that should have been there, in another something that was sold to you without you asking for it. Like, otgher examples, tesla including Autopilot on 2014 cars, HW3 for months before announcing it, MCU2 same story, and so on. As you've learned from your examples, ownership is simply something you have to prove. When it comes to delivered cars,you own what Tesla sold to you - not what they try to un-sell years after the sale. And you've also learned that the MVPA is a legal receipt, but not an itemized list of only the things you own, with anything unlisted becoming a free-for-all theft target.

If you're looking for legal examples, it happens all of the time. People sell things without realizing they underpriced it, but theft is still not permitted. One of my favorites in this is the $300 thrift store Picasso painting. Clearly, the seller would like you to represent their interests, but unfortunately the law does not agreee with you and the buyer made a million bucks profit on his resale.


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Since examples are starting to help you open your eyes, this is also why Tesla can deliver 350 volt replacement batteries to P85 owners with faulty batterygate recalled batteries now. A lot of people initially thought Tesla had to deliver 400v replacement batteries, but that is not the case. tesla put in writing "85kwh" and horsepower numbers. It took a 400v battery to achieve those numbers from 2012 through 2019, but recently they came up with a lower voltage battery that may actually be capable of more horsepower, and is absolutely capable of more capacity. Legal to use as a replacement, because while voltage is lower, voltage was never an enumerated product and the capabilities as delivered are met and/or exceeded by the replacement.

 

[dk10438]

a similar and interesting thread

3rd party Used Model 3 how can I verify it legit?

 

[Sunshine State]

If you have some kind of proof that the car had FSD when you purchased it, then it will probably take a few serious phone calls to Tesla to sort this out (some people on this forum may give you a number to call for best response). Legally they can't remove functionality from the car that they do not own.

If you don't have proof, it will be more difficult, but still try it - you have to really think through what you say while on the phone. But they have a record of when FSD was removed, and you have a record of when you have purchased the car.

Ha! a few serious phone calls? No one with any authority at Tesla takes phone calls or direct emails. They have more patience than owners do because it is just their job and they love to pass the buck. If you have some magical phone number share it because I’m pretty sure that one doesn’t exist.

 

[eccl1213]

I think one thing people confuse is that Vehicle sales are highly regulated and it's not the same scenario as the bank accidentally depositing money in your bank account and then yanking it back (that is also regulated under a different set of banking laws and as part of your account terms you sign when opening you checking account).

At least in PA, once you officially take delivery of the Vehicle, all items left in it are automatically part of the sale. This is also how most home sales go unless the agreement has a specific exclusion for an item. But even then, after closing its usually gone.

Even second hand vehicle sales work that way too. Leave your laptop in the back of the car? Guess what, if it was sold and the title notarized its gone. Its part of the vehicle.

Most other car manufactures learned that lesson a long time ago and have very clear terms around "trial" licenses for things like XM radio. But make no mistake, if the Ford dealer accidentally puts floor mats in your car BEFORE you take delivery, and then you take delivery from Ford, they have no recourse to those floor mats. And if they break into your garage to take them back it would be stealing and they can not say "they never paid for it".

I think the big problem is that Tesla provided alot of these "trials" without documenting the exact trial terms. So you could make a case that they are not trials at all then.

Of course a court (or several) would have to make that call but I would suspect most judges would not stand for a defense where Tesla says "Your honor, that was simply a trial software licenses, with no exact term date, no written terms and we never told anyone about it, but yeah, it was a trial".

My take, a judge would order it re-instated and slap tesla's hand for poor form.

 

[drtimhill]

All these incidents of Tesla removing FSD functionality from pre-owned cars that had a value added feature at time of new delivery and intended value to resale is souring me on buying FSD on a Y next season. Will the next owner years from now have that feature, or not? Who knows. Tesla needs to state that purchased FSD is temporary and only available to the original new car owner. FSD sure doesn't seem to add any value to a car being bought used if the dice rolls the wrong way and it disappears.

But are there any such incidents? There have been a few reported here, but for all the threads I've read either the OP was incorrect and the car didn't come with FSD, or it was removed by Tesla prior to a sale (and misrepresented by a dealer), or (in one public case) Tesla corrected the situation.

I think it's important to distinguish between cars sold by owners who DO have FSD, and cars sold after having been returned by Tesla which then had FSD removed before being sold on.

 

[DiyEvRepair]

Yes we had such an incident where a FSD was removed from a car AFTER the dealer purchased it from Tesla at an auction. FSD was showing up on the app and on the web account page until we asked Tesla to schedule an appointment to upgrade the AP computer to version 3, at which point they have removed the FSD and we had to fight to get it re-enabled.

 

[EVortex]

A car owner can modify their car and then sell it at whatever the free market will pay. If a modification adds value then the market may pay more. If a modification reduces value then the market may pay less. If you are not the owner you should not modify the car.

 

[tph4m]

Yes we had such an incident where a FSD was removed from a car AFTER the dealer purchased it from Tesla at an auction. FSD was showing up on the app and on the web account page until we asked Tesla to schedule an appointment to upgrade the AP computer to version 3, at which point they have removed the FSD and we had to fight to get it re-enabled.

How did you go about getting it put back on? I recently purchased a used MS from a 3rd party dealer that didnt know much about the car. The provided me the monroney sticker, which showed FSD. After purchase, I scheduled a service appt to upgrade to HW3 only to find out the FSD was no longer on the car!