FSD v12.x (end to end AI)

[Bitdepth]

O M G, it's like you didn't read the document at all. A system is not about what YOU think it should be. A system's level is about the design intent itself. If it is designed to expect constant supervision by a driver, then it's L2, despite any commentary or description or speculation about its performance.

You can have a L4 system that crashes into all road debris and construction zones. You can also have a L2 system that drives around road debris and construction zones.

So, something like this by Tesla stating that the feature is not autonomous and requires constant supervision by a driver?

https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/modely/en_us/GUID-2CB60804-9CEA-4F4B-8B04-09B991368DC5.html

Autopilot and Full Self-Driving Capability | Tesla Support

Autopilot is an advanced driver assistance system that enhances safety and convenience behind the wheel. When used properly, Autopilot reduces your overall workload as a driver. Learn more about Autopilot.

www.tesla.com

 

[Knightshade]

O M G, it's like you didn't read the document at all.

Naah, you can tell I did because I keep quoting the many, many, many, places it directly contradicts what you imagine it says

A system is not about what YOU think it should be.

Good thing I didn't claim that I guess? Instead I repeatedly quoted right from J3016.

A system's level is about the design intent itself. If it is designed to expect constant supervision by a driver, then it's L2, despite any commentary or description or speculation about its performance.

Sure. But that also means they didn't design in the ability to perform the entire DDT.

Because as J3016 makes clear, the ability to perform the entire DDT is definitionally what separates L3-L5 from the lower levels like L2.

Once it can do that, it's >L2.

As has been repeatedly cited to you from the document.


Teslas system in both design intent and actual capabilities is L2.

As Tesla themselves has repeatedly told both the public and every government agency.

It's not capable of performing the entire DDT. Thus is is L2 by definition

 

[spacecoin]

0. Plenty of misleading and incorrect information circulation, still.
1. A TAXONOMY/TERMINOLOGY is not a basis for regulation or legislation.
2. If one believes that Tesla has another design intent than driver-assistance, one should re-read the Owner's Manual. It DEFINES what the system is.

3. L4 = AUTONOMOUS. If Tesla has a L4 design intent, it's clearly the worst L4 ever produced and they are lying about it in the owner's manual. Or there is a bunch of delusional users on this forum and elsewhere that needs to stop smoking whatever Elon handed out.

4. When product in the hand of customers = DEPLOYED. Not "testing". Not L4 in progress. L2. Sorry.

 

[Supcom]

Starting to wonder if there were some problems with 12.2. If so I hope we see 12.2.1 soon.

Or maybe we could see some amendment to the SAE J3016 specs so we could have 10 more "new" pages of debate.

We don't have much data to form a baseline, so we don't know whether there's an issue, or that it takes an additional week or so to build the HW4 version after the HW3 version is complete.

Perhaps earlier versions ran on HW4 in a compatibility mode so they only needed one release. Tesla might think that V12 has matured enough to spend the additional resources to build a native HW4 version now.

 

[powertoold]

But that also means they didn't design in the ability to perform the entire DDT.

Because as J3016 makes clear, the ability to perform the entire DDT is definitionally what separates L3-L5 from the lower levels like L2.

Once it can do that, it's >L2.

So so wrong. What separates L2 from L3-L5 relates to what the system expects the driver's role to be.

In the case of L2, the system is not expected to perform the entire DDT in all cases, that's why the driver is always expected to supervise and take over if needed. This doesn't mean the L2 cannot perform the entire DDT for all trips. For some trips, the L2 driving automation system might be able to perform the entire DDT if it never encounters something it can't navigate. In this case, the driver never has to take over or intervene. It's about expectations, not actual performance. Once again, read that part in the document about the levels not conveying system performance.

What you misunderstand about the levels is the "expectation" part.

 

[spacecoin]

So so wrong. What separates L2 from L3-L5 relates to what the system expects the driver's role to be.

In the case of L2, the system is not expected to perform the entire DDT in all cases, that's why the driver is always expected to supervise and take over if needed. This doesn't mean the L2 cannot perform the entire DDT for all trips. For some trips, the L2 driving automation system might be able to perform the entire DDT if it never encounters something it can't navigate. In this case, the driver never has to take over or intervene. It's about expectations, not actual performance. Once again, read that part in the document about the levels not conveying system performance.

What you misunderstand about the levels is the "expectation" part. L5 = system is designed such that there's no expectation of a driver or limitations wrt ODD, for example, where ODD is something you design into the system software itself

You are, simply put, completely wrong about the taxonomy. The definition of L2 is that it never performs the full OEDR.

 

[powertoold]

You are, simply put, completely wrong about the taxonomy. The definition of L2 is that it never performs the full OEDR.

If a driver never has to take over or intervene in any way during a trip, the L2 driving system has completed the entire DDT without intervention. The driver is only expected to perform the DDT that is not performed by the system. So if the driver doesn't take over or intervene, then the system completed the trip doing all the DDT tasks. It's logical.

 

[spacecoin]

If a driver never has to take over or intervene in any way during a trip, the L2 driving system has completed the entire DDT without intervention.

View attachment 1018343

No. The complete/full DDT includes performing the full OEDR. Google "What is the OEDR".

Futhermore the biggest difference between ADAS and ADS is that the latter needs to be designed so that it knows in advance when it is about to fail.

 

[Knightshade]

So so wrong. What separates L2 from L3-L5 relates to what the system expects the driver's role to be.

And if the car can perform the entire DDT then the drivers role is expected to be... not the driver.

In the case of L2, the system is not expected to perform the entire DDT in all cases

You mean ANY cases.

If there are cases it CAN perform the entire DDT then it's an L3 system with the ODD defined by the circumstances of those cases.

(or even higher if it can ALSO perform the fallback, or has no ODD restrictions).

. This doesn't mean the L2 cannot perform the entire DDT for all trips.

It literally does.

View attachment 1018343

Dude.

You debunked yourself.

The right column makes clear an L2 system only ever does PART of the DDT.

At the bottom of YOUR OWN PICTURE it literally tells you the L3 description and higher are the only places you'll find the system ever doing all of the DDT.


Stop embarrassing yourself my man

 

[spacecoin]

J3016 states that for Level 2, “the driver completes the OEDR subtask and supervises the driving automation system,” immediately taking control when conditions warrant. For Level 3, OEDR is handled by the Automated Driving System (ADS); the driver retains responsibility to be “receptive to ADS-issued requests to intervene.”

OEDR: The Key Differentiator Between SAE Level 2 And Level 3 Automated Driving

A recent article unfortunately characterized ProPilot 2.0 as an SAE Level 3 system.

www.forbes.com

 

[powertoold]

And if the car can perform the entire DDT then the drivers role is expected to be... not the driver.




You mean ANY cases.

If there are cases it CAN perform the entire DDT then it's an L3 system with the ODD defined by the circumstances of those cases.

(or even higher if it can ALSO perform the fallback, or has no ODD restrictions).





It literally does.





Dude.

You debunked yourself.

The right column makes clear an L2 system only ever does PART of the DDT.

At the bottom of YOUR OWN PICTURE it literally tells you the L3 description and higher are the only places you'll find the system ever doing all of the DDT.


Stop embarrassing yourself my man

The driver's role is to perform the part DDT that the L2 does not perform, if needed

So let me ask you, if during a L2 trip where the entire trip is completed by the driving automation system without intervention or take over, what part of the DDT did the driver perform?

This is like an IQ test or something

 

[spacecoin]

The driver's role is to perform the part DDT that the L2 does not perform, if needed

So let me ask you, if during a L2 trip where the entire trip is completed by the driving automation system without intervention or take over, what part of the DDT did the driver perform?

This is like an IQ test or something

THE FULL OEDR. Do you have a reading disability?

 

[Knightshade]

The driver's role is to perform the part DDT that the L2 does not perform, if needed

If the system is L2 then the human doing that function is always needed

By definition.

A definition you posted a picture of.

But don't understand.

The same picture, at the bottom, also tells you if a system is every capable of NOT needing it-- ie capable of ALL the parts of the DDT, then it is higher than L2 by definition

This is like an IQ test or something

That's for sure!

 

[powertoold]

THE FULL OEDR. Do you have a reading disability?

So you're saying if an L2 driving automation system is able to complete a particular trip without any intervention or take over by the driver, then it performed the entire DDT during that trip, am I correct?

 

[spacecoin]

So you're saying if an L2 driving automation system is able to complete a particular trip without any intervention or take over by the driver, then it performed the entire DDT during that trip, am I correct?

No OMG. Please READ.

 

[Knightshade]

So you're saying if an L2 driving automation system is able to complete a particular trip without any intervention or take over by the driver, then it performed the entire DDT during that trip, am I correct?

No, you are not correct.

You haven't been correct the entire thread.

In this specific case you seem to think "without intervention" means it did the entire DDT. Which means you don't even understand what the DDT is.

 

[powertoold]

No, you are not correct.

You haven't been correct the entire thread.

In this specific case you seem to think "without intervention" means it did the entire DDT. Which means you don't even understand what the DDT is.

Then answer my question, if the L2 did NOT perform the entire DDT, please point to which DDT tasks it did not perform for that particular intervention-free trip, despite always expecting a driver there to supervise

 

[spacecoin]

Watch this @powertoold

 

[powertoold]

Watch this @powertoold

I don't need to watch other people's opinion about how to interpret this table, (which knightshade initially referenced), which clearly states all we need to know about this discussion. The driver is expected to perform the parts of the DDT not performed by the L2 driving system:

 

[Supcom]

2023.44.30.14 incoming to my FSD car. Definitely being held back for V12!