Future Charging for Model S 1-phase or 3-phase ?

[widodh]

i think its a good idea to compare the situations in Europe and America. It looks like, that the NEMA-50 is quite popular in America like the CEE 3x16A is in Europe. I think you wont be happy to have a charger which supports 3x16A but could not do higher currents? or can do 3x32A but not even 1x40A?

If Tesla would support 3-phase AC charging through onboard chargers it will be market specific.

So the US Model S will ship with a 1-phase 20kW charger, where the European model will ship with a 3-phase 22kW charger (limited to 32A on 1-phase).

You probably shouldn't expect the best of both worlds, high power 1-phase and 3-phase. I also don't see that being useful anywhere in the world.

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

the European model will ship with a 3-phase 22kW charger (limited to 32A on 1-phase).

if they are smart they'll support 70A 1 Phase on European models so that visitors to existing HPC sites can 'fast' charge... this would also allow a 'UK' car to travel into 'mainland' Europe.

 

[Eberhard]

if they are smart they'll support 70A 1 Phase on European models so that visitors to existing HPC sites can 'fast' charge... this would also allow a 'UK' car to travel into 'mainland' Europe.

Model S will come with the option of a second 10kW charger, why not a third 10kW charger? It does not matter for those charger to be connected to single phase (U.S.) or to different phases (Europe). Its Tesla who does not wants this, because they fall in love with their silly proprietary non standard plug. This is the only reason for the incompatibility to 3-phase. Why not add a hidden second socket like the Mennekes Type 2? I was talking to JB Strauble twice but with no positive results.

 

[eledille]

Kevin, I think they should let the customers choose which charger/chargers they need. That 70 A 1-phase charger is expensive...

I want a 32 or preferably 63 A charger that supports both 400 and 230 V 3-phase. I'll never encounter more than 32 A 1-phase anyway.

If support for 230 V 3-phase is impossible then up to 32 A 1-phase would be useful in Norway, to get 7 of the 13 kW in the 230 V 32 A 3-phase sockets. If 230 V 3-phase is supported I only need 16 A single phase.

widodh: Can a 32 A 3-phase charger handle 32 A single phase? Insufficient smoothing capacity?

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

Kevin, I think they should let the customers choose which charger/chargers they need. That 70 A 1-phase charger is expensive...

I agree that the customer should choose... Tesla already have the 80A option when supporting 2 x 10kW onboard chargers in the "US" configuration... I'm simply suggesting that they continue this option in the European cars so that they can be used in the UK and at selected HPC sites in Mainland Europe.

3 Phase is rare at the consumer level in the UK. Therefore a 80A option on UK cars will make the most of everyday HPC 'fast' charge. However, I would also want 3 Phase option on UK cars so that I can take the car into mainland Europe.

Bottom line, fit the cars with "mennekes" (or equivalent) connector and support both 1 Phase and 3 Phase and we will all be happy.

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

Model S will come with the option of a second 10kW charger, why not a third 10kW charger?

In the UK 3 Phase is not readily available at homes and small business and therefore most people would not benefit from 30kW AC.

 

[eledille]

I agree that the customer should choose... Bottom line, fit the cars with "mennekes" (or equivalent) connector and support both 1 Phase and 3 Phase and we will all be happy.

Right. And Norway wants 230/400 V 3-phase. And Carthage must be destroyed.

 

[dpeilow]

In the UK 3 Phase is not readily available at homes and small business and therefore most people would not benefit from 30kW AC.

We've all been around this one before. In the vast majority of cases three phase is on the pole outside (or in the duct), so it is very simple to get. If you ask for Economy7 heating you will get it, for example.

If you have to upgrade the supply anyway then getting 3 phase is a very similar cost if it is just a drop from the pole.

Someone else did this helpful picture...

Installing HPCs at half the hotels on the UK network was a PITA because of this and several sites had to be ruled out, when if the HPC was three phase it would have been dead simple to install. The Moat House would have been installed a year ago had the car been able to charge with three phase.

Previous suggestions of have 3 chargers than can run in three phase or parallel for single phase seems to be the better solution to me.

 

[eledille]

Previous suggestions of have 3 chargers than can run in three phase or parallel for single phase seems to be the better solution to me.

Three single phase chargers make an extremely expensive 3-phase charger. But depending on other factors (available space, time etc) this might be the best solution initially.

 

[VolkerP]

Tesla stated that Model S cannot accommodate a 3rd 10kW on board charging unit. They're out of space and cannot deal with the additional heat.
They'll have to drop the "many little units will drop price" and "our plug rules" mantras here, and make or buy a 3phase 11-22kW on board charger connected to a Mennekes charge port. Obviously, engineering is very hesitant about even thinking about it.

If Tesla gives me a rebate on my Model S without any on board charger, I'd give it a try and retrofit such a charger & port myself.
Mennekes IEC 62196-2 L2 port Type 2 and BRUSA NLG6 22kW charger that is...

 

[doug]

Three single phase chargers make an extremely expensive 3-phase charger.

Probably. But given how it's been said Tesla is doing their 90kW "Supercharger" (i.e. with nine 10kW single phase chargers connected to a 3-phase supply), they may benefit from some economies of scale.

 

[stopcrazypp]

The "solution" that would require the least amount of engineering is to just have three single phase chargers. The unfortunate issue is you can't fit all three 10kW ones in there.

I don't know. I guess Tesla can go third party if the demand isn't enough for them to build their own. We won't really know how Tesla wants to handle things until closer to the launch.

 

[dpeilow]

If the three chargers are running at 20kW then heat isn't and issue.

As for space, we constantly hear about how much space this car has. Look how deep the trunk is.

 

[Eberhard]

Three single phase chargers make an extremely expensive 3-phase charger. But depending on other factors (available space, time etc) this might be the best solution initially.

The Model S comes with one 10kW charger = 240V/40A and the option of a second 10kW charger = 2x 240V/40A or 1x 240V/80A with 3rd 10kW charger = 3x 240V/40A or 1x 240V/120A. The 90kW DC Quickcharger comes with 9x 10kW charger = 3x 277V/120A connected to the U.S. 3-phase grid.
3- phase charger are not extremely expensive, they cost the same like single-phase its just the configuration, who they got to work. Specialized 3-phase are even cheaper and even more efficient. But 3x single phase charger do the job as well.
At least i hope, that the second optional charger of the Model S can be connected on two different phases. this would allow me to charge the Model S with 2x 16A from the 3-phase grid instead of carry around the 2nd charger as an useless ballast.

 

[widodh]

The Model S comes with one 10kW charger = 240V/40A and the option of a second 10kW charger = 2x 240V/40A or 1x 240V/80A with 3rd 10kW charger = 3x 240V/40A or 1x 240V/120A. The 90kW DC Quickcharger comes with 9x 10kW charger = 3x 277V/120A connected to the U.S. 3-phase grid.
3- phase charger are not extremely expensive, they cost the same like single-phase its just the configuration, who they got to work. Specialized 3-phase are even cheaper and even more efficient. But 3x single phase charger do the job as well.
At least i hope, that the second optional charger of the Model S can be connected on two different phases. this would allow me to charge the Model S with 2x 16A from the 3-phase grid instead of carry around the 2nd charger as an useless ballast.

Keep in mind that you also want to charge at 1-phase with low ampere like 16A.

As far as I know, a 3-phase charger ALWAYS needs 3-phase input to operate. If you take 3 chargers which are all connected to a single phase you can do 3-phase charging, but you can also fall back on single-phase charging whenever you are charging on a simple outlet.

If they do something really cool they could make a mechanism that can switch all 3 chargers to a single phase so you can do fast charging on 1-phase AND 3-phases.

 

[VolkerP]

Wido,

advanced 3ph chargers like the BRUSA NLG6 can take 1ph or 3ph as input, though the 1ph input would be only 1/3 of the full power.

 

[widodh]

Wido,

advanced 3ph chargers like the BRUSA NLG6 can take 1ph or 3ph as input, though the 1ph input would be only 1/3 of the full power.

Ok, that solves it

I still think the NLG6 is a good potential candidate for the Model S, but that is up to Tesla.

 

[Eberhard]

Ok, that solves it

I still think the NLG6 is a good potential candidate for the Model S, but that is up to Tesla.

I already have contact with BRUSA and ask them to modify the NLG6 to talk direct with the Mennekes Type 2 socket. Connected to Teslas CAN-Bus and the EES it could act as an additional charger. We were also talking about a 3x16A solution with will be air-cooled, while the NLG6 is liquid-cooled. (fine for Model S but not for the Roadster)

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

We've all been around this one before. In the vast majority of cases three phase is on the pole outside (or in the duct), so it is very simple to get. If you ask for Economy7 heating you will get it, for example.

I don't doubt that 3 Phase is available on the pole BUT it's not exposed in the UK at the end user level. Obviously, everyone can request an upgrade but I'm interested in deploying mass infrastructure at low cost today, and in the UK that's 1 Phase, and mainland Europe 3 Phase.

We need to apply KISS and encourage Tesla to support optional 20kW in-car chargers with both 1 Phase and 3 Phase input... then we have a car that can travel anywhere in Europe.

I would also hope that Tesla support CHAdeMO alongside their proprietary DC interface so that we can use the networks that are on the ground when the car arrives.

When I worked on distributed power systems for computers we had a universal input that could take power from, 1 Phase, 3 Phase, or 48V DC. We then distributed power around the system as DC and had individual power supplies for each sub-system. I hope that Tesla have done something similar with their charger architecture.

 

[Eberhard]

its interesting, that the Zerotracer on the World-Zeroemissen-Race, uses a 7-pole Mennekes to feed the 3x16A Brusa charger. By this they where able to use single-phase or 3-phase in star or delta configuration.