Future Charging for Model S 1-phase or 3-phase ?

[emq]

Huh? Where is a reference that ACP provided PEM? I thought Tesla had licensed some ACP technology, but built (or had it built) themselves.
Also, Roadster doesn't offer 3 phase charging, so why use Roadster PEM as an example of your point?
Which ACP vehicles are doing 3-phase charging? They provided hardware for the Mini-E trial vehicles. Those didn't do 3-phase charging either, did they?

You are right, TM payed licence to ACP for roadster 1-499, that was the Eberhard Aerea

ACP delivers the latest technologie to E-Tracer. The first gerneration of E-Tracer were identical hardware like Mini-E, but not limited to 50A 240V charging, full range 10-80A 240V charging for E-Tracer.

Future E-Tracer will have ACP equiment with 3ph charging for Europe, it was a long jurney to convince ACP for 3ph charging

BMW tried to charge 32A 230V in Europe, lessen learned, they gave it up, because, it will not be supported by most Utilitys

There is a investigation for 1ph charging, result:
Many 3ph grid get in trouble with massive paralel charging with 230V 16A, because that constallation never exists bevor.

TM is the only Company, have not lessean learnd about 3ph charging.

 

[widodh]

I'm quoting from another thread: No Supercharging for 40Kwh

So I spoke to Tesla customer rep and they confirmed the 40Kwh will never have a QC option. The fastest it can charge is ~2 hours if you buy the twin charger. If not it'll take ~4hours.

Also they only expect the 60Kwh and 80Kwh owners to quick charge ONLY in emergencies. They expect supercharging for those battery packs to only happen 2% of the time during the entire life cycle of the battery. So don't be planning on supercharging everyday.

This is because supercharging regularly will actually kill the battery and they obviously don't want that. The Nissan Leaf has a smaller battery pack and different chemistry so it can quick charge more often than the Tesla battery packs.

It's a good thing my reservation won't come up till 2013, since this now gives me time to see if BMW or other car manufacturers can come up with a better solution (for their i series cars) in 2013 or if they too will recommend quick charging only 2% of the time.

If the rep is telling the truth about how Tesla thinks about SuperCharging it might be a good thing for the 3-phase charging discussion!

Imho Tesla would see a clear case where 3-phase charging is the way to give European Model S users a possibility to charge with ~20kW and avoid the use of Quick/Super charging.

 

[dpeilow]

If he is telling the truth then they've chosen the wrong chemistry and it also begs the question as to whether the 90kW rate was chosen just to hit the arbitrary 45 minute charge time quoted 2 years ago. Why not limit it to 50kW for longevity?

A LEAF battery is supposed to be ~$9k so that would make an equivalent 85kWh one ~$32k.

Perhaps that German troll we used to get was not so far of the mark...

However if 90% of charging is at work or home then a high proportion of that remaining 10% will likely be hotel charging or during visits, so the actual amount of rapid charging may well be 2%. Still, that would make you have to be Mr Average.

 

[Norbert]

A LEAF battery is supposed to be ~$9k so that would make an equivalent 85kWh one ~$32k.

This becomes an interesting consideration. ~$9k and ~$32k is less than I would have expected, what's the source of this info?

And yes, it would be an argument in favor of 3-phase support, as unfortunate as it would be.

 

[eledille]

Writing letters to Tesla is good, but is there some online pressure group I can join too?

 

[ElSupreme]

If he is telling the truth then they've chosen the wrong chemistry and it also begs the question as to whether the 90kW rate was chosen just to hit the arbitrary 45 minute charge time quoted 2 years ago. Why not limit it to 50kW for longevity?

A LEAF battery is supposed to be ~$9k so that would make an equivalent 85kWh one ~$32k.

Perhaps that German troll we used to get was not so far of the mark...

However if 90% of charging is at work or home then a high proportion of that remaining 10% will likely be hotel charging or during visits, so the actual amount of rapid charging may well be 2%. Still, that would make you have to be Mr Average.

I agree with the SuperCharging speed should be tailored to battery damage/convience and not just put on an arbitrary scale.

The Leaf battery is pretty big. I doubt you could cram 3.5 of them in the size of the Model S pack.

With battery chemistry there are a LOT of variables. You have volumetric power density, mass power density, capacity, instant current draw, longevity, cycle life, temperature performance, cost, and charge rate.

Perhaps in the future Tesla can offer different battery packs for different needs. But until they are stable and they get critical mass of people wanting different characteristics from their packs I personally think they picked fairly well.

But I do have access to a 480VAC 3 phase 60A circuit at work. It would be awesome to charge my car off of that!

 

[dpeilow]

^ wow...are you the first American to say you want 3 phase in the US model? :biggrin:

 

[ElSupreme]

^ wow...are you the first American to say you want 3 phase in the US model? :biggrin:

I mean when I have 26kW at my disposal at work, and it would give me an excuse to park inside why not.

EDIT: And 60A is breaker size I actually don't know how big the feed is.

 

[eledille]

I mean when I have 26kW at my disposal at work, and it would give me an excuse to park inside why not.

EDIT: And 60A is breaker size I actually don't know how big the feed is.

That's actually 49.8 kW...

 

[widodh]

Writing letters to Tesla is good, but is there some online pressure group I can join too?

Not that I know of. We are talking about it here on TMC. But you can always drop a couple of e-mails at a random @teslamotors.com e-mail address?

 

[eledille]

I was thinking of a facebook group with a steadily increasing member count or something similar...

 

[Eberhard]

I mean when I have 26kW at my disposal at work, and it would give me an excuse to park inside why not.

EDIT: And 60A is breaker size I actually don't know how big the feed is.

I am sorry for you, because like me, you would not be able to charge the Model S, despite the twin charger, with the full power but 60A. With 3-phase ability done with an third 10kW charger you could charge with 30kW.

 

[Lloyd]

Eberhard, Would you not have to upgrade the PEM also as it has a limit of 20 kW?

 

[widodh]

Eberhard, Would you not have to upgrade the PEM also as it has a limit of 20 kW?

The Model S no longer has a PEM.

It has an inverter for the motor and one or two separate chargers. In theory you could install a third and have them all charge of a different phase.

The only problem is the lack of space under the rear seats and the connector design....

 

[dpeilow]

Lack of space yet it can carry a mountain bike, surf board and flat screen TV. I'd forego the surf board.

 

[WarpedOne]

The Model S no longer has a PEM. It has an inverter for the motor and one or two separate chargers.

Which are exactly the same things. Inverter, PEM, controller, XYZ - it controlls energy flow into the motor and back into batteries. Name changes, function does not.

 

[Eberhard]

The Roadster has the charging unit integrated in the PEM. At the version 1.5 the charger was part of the motor electronics using the coils of the motor.

 

[Lloyd]

Thanks Eberhard!

 

[ElSupreme]

That's actually 49.8 kW...

How does 3 phase work. I can't remember that from my power electronics class?

208*60*3 != 49.8kW

 

[doug]

How does 3 phase work. I can't remember that from my power electronics class?

208*60*3 != 49.8kW

Based on what you posted earlier ("But I do have access to a 480VAC 3 phase 60A circuit at work.") it's

( 480/sqrt(3) )V * 60A * 3 = 480V *60A *sqrt(3) = 49.8kW

That's 480V from one phase to the next, 277V to neutral.

If instead you have 208V between phases (120V to neutral) it's
208V*60*sqrt(3) = 21.6kW

Not sure where you got 26kW.