this seems so simple to me that I can only imagine that Tesla have painted themselves into a corner by not understanding power distribution in Europe (and this led them to design a connector without 3 Phase support).
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Let's be absolutely crystal clear about this...
Any "European" spec Model S needs to have both 3 phase and 1 phase at 20+ kW levels anyway because the prevelent system at the domestic level in Germany, Austria, Netherlands, etc is 3 phase but in France, Spain etc it is single phase. I don't think there have been enough French voices in this discussion to highlight that, but that is my understanding from friends and colleagues who live there. So to lump all of Mainland Europe together is misleading.
In the UK it is not correct to say that three phase doesn't exist at the end user level. It is certainly in most businesses and hotels and (maybe this is luck) but I've seen it in many residential buildings including my current and my last place. It is often used in places with electric heating, small hobby workshops or just big houses. Both my grandparents' places have it, I have an uncle and aunt that use it for electric heating and I noticed the last three holiday rentals that I have been at had it (yes, I know, I do take notice of these things...). In saying that, I am not claiming that is the norm. The incomer to most houses is single phase but I am told the extra cost for three phase in a new build is typically £100, so maybe they should do it as standard.
You would be able to deploy 20kW charging very cheaply in many hotels if the cars could use three phase.
While the UK regulations don't explicitly forbid a high single phase load, it is difficult to cater for and most electricians involved with the HPC project had reservations about installing a 70A single phase device bacause of the phase imbalancing - they asked if there was a three phase variant available. I can't emphasise enough how much easier it would have been to deploy HPCs had they been three phase. Every single hotel I went to had a three phase incoming supply and could have offered 17kW (HPC level) charging from three phases without hassle. We even looked at getting phase converters in a couple of locations at a cost of a couple of thousand, because it would potentially have been worth it.
As an aside, a further advantage of having three phase at a property is that you can go beyond the 3.68 kW (16 A) limit on renewables where you have to start involving the utility and jumping through their hoops. Three phase allows 3x that.
I think many of us here recognise that we need BOTH 1 Phase and 3 Phase support in "Europe" as a whole.... I'm trying to make the point that I need both to use a UK car when I travel across the water.
I'm talking about exposure to the end user at a socket level in UK property. In my street NO houses have 3 Phase and my electricity company would not even quote to install it unless I was having electric heating installed at the same time. The houses in my street date from the 1970's.
Sorry, but of the ~100 sites that have seen surveyed I would say the majority either do not have 3 Phase or it would drive up the installation cost to the point where they will not install today. I believe this will change over time, but today I do not think this is true in many UK locations.
You mentioned the Moathouse hotel and I think that is a good example. I discussed this with the electrician last week onsite and he stated that they have lots of convenient 63A 1 Phase feeds around the property but no 3 Phase that we could use without some major ground work and cost.
I have no doubt that the ZCW requirements for 64A 1 Phase supply bias our view of the world... however, we do explicitly ask the questions about 3 Phase support and recommend installing suitable cables for future upgrades but to the best of my knowledge this has never happened (I will know more detail when all the electricians certificates are returned).
I did a trip to France and Spain in February this year and just returned from a trip to Italy (1750km within 4 days). In Spain, I found any kind of sockets, CEE 3-phase sockets with and without neutral, in the Harbor even single Phase up to 125A.
in France i found normal 3-phase CEE with socket. In Italy, I charged with 16A at 3x16A CEE socket with Neutral but found those with 4 Pins without Neutral. Even blue 20A CEE (like 16A, but fused with 20A). But anyway 3-phase is everywhere even in the U.S. otherwise, Teslas 90kW Supercharger wont work. It would really the best, having 3 smaller charger, also for the case, one may fail, then the other 2 ones would still work. Tesla why don't you hear to your customers as Georg Blankenship promised to us.
in France i found normal 3-phase CEE with socket. In Italy, I charged with 16A at 3x16A CEE socket with Neutral but found those with 4 Pins without Neutral. Even blue 20A CEE (like 16A, but fused with 20A). But anyway 3-phase is everywhere even in the U.S. otherwise, Teslas 90kW Supercharger wont work. It would really the best, having 3 smaller charger, also for the case, one may fail, then the other 2 ones would still work. Tesla why don't you hear to your customers as Georg Blankenship promised to us.
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We appear to be talking about the difference between small B&Bs and larger hotels, restaurants or workplaces here.
Either they have had some upgrade work done or something doesn't stack up. The main hotel supplies have/had nothing like this level on a single phase without serious rearrangement of the other hotel circuits. However they had a secondary panel close to a parking space by reception that could have supported 32A per phase (i.e. 3P 32A = 22 kW).
This was before the completely separate single phase supply to the car park was "discovered", which should have enough to run an HPC as long as the floodlights aren't on...
Bottom line is that this install could have happened in October 2010 if the charger was three phase.
Likewise Marriott Heathrow would not have the 60A, 13.8kW restriction if the charger was three phase.
QHotels Nottingham wanted to install nearer the building but that had to be three phase.
Aviemore would have been cheaper to install had it been three phase.
It was a stroke of luck that the Castle Taunton had recently removed a rubbish compactor, or that would have had to be three phase.
The Scarlet Hotel has a socket in the car park already so if someone had a 22kW charger it's already there.
Etc.
The Moathouse did not wish to use the location by reception so it was not available even if it did support 3 Phase (which the site electrician did not mention when we discussed upgrades for future EV expansion).
The Moathouse has at least two 63A supplies in the car park area. One is today used for the ZCW installation (45A) and the canal boats, and the second is under discussion as a new location for the HPC. As far as I'm aware the flood lights are not an issue but I'll know more when I visit in January.
Unfortunately, when I tried to use these sockets none of them worked. This is why they installed ZCW Charging Stations in the sister hotel (Bedruthan) 100 yards up the road.
All delays to this installation are due to Tesla... nothing to do with whether the HPC supports 1 or 3 Phase IMO.
I cannot say whether the ~10 HPC installs would have been easier if they had been 3 Phase because so much depends on power availability and willingness of third parties to engage. What I can say is that in our ~100 surveys we have not seen 3 Phase availability on the ground even though it clearly is the main power source for many of the sites. This may be because we are not pushing for 3 Phase or simply that our requests for 45A-64A are easily met.
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At the time that was the prefered location of the then General Manager. Only the requirements for 70A stopped it being used.
The second was agreed as the location for the HPC when I handed the project over, so I'm surprised they are going around this loop again. IIRC it is an 80A supply too.
But those of us in the discussions 12 months ago will recall that three phase was very much cited as a way to get the HPC installed here and this was one of the sites where a phase converter was considered (at the time we were not told that the car park lights were on a completely separate incoming supply).
There's a slight difference in that an HPC is a single 70A load whereas the two ZCW sockets can be split across phases or perhaps the electricians are considering diversity in the installation.
I'm not trying to say you are wrong but there is a difference when you get into the ~20kW regime as opposed to the 7kW power levels that a single ZCW socket gives out, especially if that 80A HPC2 is going to be used to overnight charge a 300 mile Model S for six or seven hours at a time. If done regularly that could cause upstream problems.
Maybe I'm extremely lucky, but I know that if there was such a thing as a three phase version of the UMC, I could plug in at 22kW at my flat, my office, the family farm, my old employer's office, my old employer's field site - either directly in 4 cases or with nothing more than £35 worth of bits from Screwfix at the 5th.
I completely agree... installing two 7kW 1 Phase Charging Stations is 'trivial' for many locations in the UK.
Guys, I'm not sure all these details are particularly necessary here. I think the bottom line is that while 3-phase is needed in Europe the charger still needs to be able to support single phase. So the answer to 1-phase or 3-phase is, of course, should do both! On this I believe most of us agree.
I like Eberhard's idea of three single phase chargers for its conceptual simplicity. Concerns over cost and heat dissipation are I think non-issues or at least relatively easy to fix. For cost, just charge more. For heat dissipation, just run at lower power or tie into the motor cooling loop (which may already be the case). Packaging might be a problem depending how much effort Tesla wants to invest on the issue. Perhaps in the year between North American and EU launches, Tesla can scale the form factor of their 10kW single phase charger down by one third (maybe make a 7kW version).
I like Eberhard's idea of three single phase chargers for its conceptual simplicity. Concerns over cost and heat dissipation are I think non-issues or at least relatively easy to fix. For cost, just charge more. For heat dissipation, just run at lower power or tie into the motor cooling loop (which may already be the case). Packaging might be a problem depending how much effort Tesla wants to invest on the issue. Perhaps in the year between North American and EU launches, Tesla can scale the form factor of their 10kW single phase charger down by one third (maybe make a 7kW version).
I would be happy, if Tesla make it possible to charge with the second charger on a second phase. By this i can double my charge while charging on 3x16A with a total of 32A. But even this possibility was denied by JB Straubel. What if the Signature Edition will come with 2 charger? the second will be nearly worthless ballast to me.
If thermal load of 2 chargers can be handled, why not from 3? If they are liquid-coold - no problem at all.
If thermal load of 2 chargers can be handled, why not from 3? If they are liquid-coold - no problem at all.
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Here's a good article on the supply situation in France. Seems similar to the UK in that three phase can be installed, but where it differs is the automatic trip out if the load is imbalanced. That would suggest three phase charging is a must at high power in such installations.
3 - Phase Electricity Supplies - a Total France Factsheet
Also a useful forum post on the same site: three phase power - View topic :: Total France
Here is the regulation that says 60A is the limit for one phase: Association Promotelec : Amendement A1 Ã* la NF C 14-100 : du nouveau dans la GTL
3 - Phase Electricity Supplies - a Total France Factsheet
Also a useful forum post on the same site: three phase power - View topic :: Total France
Here is the regulation that says 60A is the limit for one phase: Association Promotelec : Amendement A1 Ã* la NF C 14-100 : du nouveau dans la GTL
Adm
Active Member
So, it would appear there will be no DC or 3 phase charging for the 160mi battery option... Wow, my sales representative will have his work cut out to explain why I would want Model S with so limited charging possibilities...
AC Propulsion delivered PEM for Roadster 0-499. ACP learned, there is no EU market without 3ph charging & will deliver 3ph Charging for EU Vehicles. I hope TM will learn from ACP again
Huh? Where is a reference that ACP provided PEM? I thought Tesla had licensed some ACP technology, but built (or had it built) themselves.
Also, Roadster doesn't offer 3 phase charging, so why use Roadster PEM as an example of your point?
Which ACP vehicles are doing 3-phase charging? They provided hardware for the Mini-E trial vehicles. Those didn't do 3-phase charging either, did they?
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