Future Charging for Model S 1-phase or 3-phase ?

[emq]

I think the stock holders on this forum really need to wake up to this issue... Tesla are making some terrible engineering decisions which will seriously hurt the company.

I understand all this tecnical aproaches to solve the problem, because I tried since 2008.

For Power quality Expert training I spent about 10 000 sFr to get more access to the Utiity responsible for connection.

When I applied a 1ph connection for a Tesla Roadster with 32A 230V or 32A 400V the answer was:
It is tecnically possible, according D-A-CH-CZ Rules, but as long, as we have not discussed this supject, between the different utilitys we have a political agreement, not to allow for 1ph above 16A230V and 400V.

You do not need to apply, because we politically do not allow.

So there are 2 political statements: Teslamotors "neclection for 3ph" & Swiss Utility "1ph above 16A"

According IEC 61000-3-11 for 16-75A 1ph Teslamotors must declare the connection needs a 100A fuse or a max Impedance to allow this connection.
But this works only if the Utility does not decide politically.

Teslamotors hide this circumstances, by illegal recomandation, to install a free red CEE-5/32A plug.

 

[Eberhard]

I am Member of CES TK 69, Swiss regulation for Electric road vehicles.
My college is convener of wireless charging and participatetes in IEC & Cenelec TC 69.

IEC 61851 is a international frame, within 1ph 240V80A is ok, if national rueles are fullfilled
Switzerland allowes 1ph 230V 16A.
No confusion, just beliefe it.
And switzerland will not allow more than 16A 1ph 230V for a mass production vehicle, like model S.

I try since 2009, to support Teslamotors R&D for a European charging solution, but when PaloAlto decided not to support 3ph, after a 1h conference call, they change Telefonnumber of my Contact person & dont answer me email & Teslamotors Switzerland do not allow me to enter the Service part of the shop, i supported the Electrican for the HPC installation in Teslamotors CH Service Station, wich does not yet work with 63A 230V.

I discussed 32A230V with the Nissan Leaf responsable for CH and we noticed that the 6kW leaf charger will only charge with 16A 230V 3,6kW in switzerland.

3ph charging is no tecnical problem, its a political one, so we cannot solve it by tecnical recomandations.

I hope this information will wake up teslamotors to forget the european market with 1ph above 16A.

i hope the regulations keep strict on their rules. To deny Tesla or other car makers the homologation for their electric cars would help.
the carmaker cannot setup their own rules. They have to accept standards.

 

[hcsharp]

That 62196 article on Wikipedia is a mess. I don't know who has been editing it recently but it needs a complete review.

Anyway, I went back to IEC61851 which sets current limits and signalling. It does specify 32A for both 1 and 3 phase at Mode 2 and above and there are no national exceptions stated. It also says in a footnote:

So there is not problem as far as IEC is concerned.

Plugging 32A single phase into a IEC 62192 type 2 three phase socket is allowed and is already being done. This has already been tested with the Roadster, for example.

IEC 62196 and 61851 do in fact allow 70A single phase charging. I remember reading it a couple months ago when building my cables/adapters. 62196 prescribes a method of determining what amperage the cable is capable of because everyone has to carry their own cable around. While this may be good for Roadster owners, obviously newer cars should not take advantage of this. Roadster owners can at least take heart in knowing a lot of these 70A 1ph chargers are being installed.

If you look at the World Map of Model S Reservation Holders thread you will see a huge European market. Tesla has made mistakes but they are not so stupid as to ignore a glaring need that this market has. OK, I know, they ignored it at first, but it sounds like they may have smartened up.

 

[eledille]

You misunderstood me, my phrasing was probably bad. By off-board I meant the rectifier should not be integrated into the charger, but a separate device (still mounted in the car). This way they could use the same charger(s) for single- and three-phase, just use the proper rectifier. Probably a dual auto-switching one would be the best, using three-phase when present. Then feed the charger(s) DC.

Ah, ok, then I agree with you.

 

[widodh]

IEC 62196 and 61851 do in fact allow 70A single phase charging. I remember reading it a couple months ago when building my cables/adapters. 62196 prescribes a method of determining what amperage the cable is capable of because everyone has to carry their own cable around. While this may be good for Roadster owners, obviously newer cars should not take advantage of this. Roadster owners can at least take heart in knowing a lot of these 70A 1ph chargers are being installed.

If you look at the World Map of Model S Reservation Holders thread you will see a huge European market. Tesla has made mistakes but they are not so stupid as to ignore a glaring need that this market has. OK, I know, they ignored it at first, but it sounds like they may have smartened up.

The specifications might allow for 70A 1ph, but it could be that other regulations do not?

I know for sure that due to phase-balancing you are not allowed to draw more then 50A at MAX on a single-phase here. But getting that is really hard and you will need a special permit. Nearly impossible.

For EV chargers which are mass-deployed such permits will never be given. At home you'll never be able to get that kind of amperage.

For example, my fusebox at home:
* http://zooi.widodh.nl/ev/tech/charging/fuse-box-at-home/20111229_004.jpg
* http://zooi.widodh.nl/ev/tech/charging/fuse-box-at-home/20111229_005.jpg

That is heavy equipped with 3x40A, normal houses might have 1x40A or 3x25A.

So next to IEC 62196 I think there are other (non EV) related regulations who forbid these kinds of implementations. If huge numbers of cars start drawing 40, 50, 70A on a single-phase that could really imbalance the grid.

George B told at the event that he sees a huge potential in Europe, but that they are limited in capacity? They'd better hire me

 

[eledille]

dpeilow, hcsharp: Even though IEC 62196 and 61851 allow greater than 16 A single phase, EU, national and individual utility regulations can still disallow it.

I hope they do, and homologation might be a good tool for it, as it would allow existing Roadster/Leaf/etc owners to continue to charge at more than 16 A where possible, but would force manufacturers to implement the right solution from now on.

 

[widodh]

I just had a 1hr call with my contact and this is what I heard:

- The Model S EU will have 3-phase charging from 1st delivery (February 2013....)
- They will place a 3rd charger in the Model S, each charger draws power from a different phase
- Tesla's biggest problem was the price of adding the 3rd charger. So we'd probably be looking at a $3000 option for 3-phase charging

My contact spoke with a guy who was actually working on the 3-phase charging for the Model S.

Another guy told him that 3-phase charging is mandatory for the Model S otherwise they wouldn't get it into for example Germany.

In about two weeks I might be able to get a hold of a high placed Tesla individual as he's traveling around Europe, not sure yet.

For now, this is the information I have.

I'm having mixed feelings since this is still not confirmed officially, but it however seems like solid information.

Why not just say: "Yes, we WILL support 3-phase charging. More information will be released in the summer of 2012!"

 

[LST]

Hi Wido

Congrats to those results. Even if this is not official yet, think it's a big step to boost acceptance and practicability of Model S in EU.

I wonder how fast charging will be on a Mennekes 32amp plug.

Thank you for the good work and initiative !

Let's hope the pricing will not be prohibitive.

 

[widodh]

Hi Wido

Congrats to those results. Even if this is not official yet, think it's a big step to boost acceptance and practicability of Model S in EU.

I surely do hope this information is correct, but I have a good feeling about it since it came from people who are actually working on this implementation.

I wonder how fast charging will be on a Mennekes 32amp plug.

3x32A at 400V will output about 20kW of useable power. The 85kWh battery will then take somewhere around 5hrs for a 0 to 100% charge.

Per hour you'd charge something like 18kWh, with somewhere around 180Wh/KM you'd be looking at 100km per hour of charging.

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

Why not just say: "Yes, we WILL support 3-phase charging. More information will be released in the summer of 2012!"

Agreed, that's all we need for now.

 

[Eberhard]

That means: we can charge with the triple charger at the same speed (or a little faster) on 230v 3x32A = 22kW, like the US twin charger 240V (277V) on 80A =20kW.

In Europe we will always have hundreds of charging stations with 3x32A from the very beginning + a few hundreds additional with 3x16A with 11kW according to LEMNET.org.

Zooming around in Europe will be very easy.

 

[widodh]

That means: we can charge with the triple charger at the same speed (or a little faster) on 230v 3x32A = 22kW, like the US twin charger 240V (277V) on 80A =20kW.

In Europe we will always have hundreds of charging stations with 3x32A from the very beginning + a few hundreds additional with 3x16A with 11kW according to LEMNET.org.

Zooming around in Europe will be very easy.

Indeed! Not to mention the number of 3-phase outlets which are already available on markets, garages, etc, etc. You would probably have to manufactur a portable EVSE for that, but that won't be a problem with the Open EVSE project.

 

[dsm363]

Congrats! I think that's what you were expecting with it costing more but hope it's acceptable to everyone who wanted 3 phase charging.

 

[doug]

Definitely sounds positive! Still some open questions, though, like what charge connector are they going to use (since the one they've shown won't support 3 phase) and why was getting any hint on something that's a technical no-brainer like pulling teeth? But it feels like talking about it before there's official word might jinx it.

 

[dpeilow]

Yes.

Well done to everyone who has campaigned for this.

 

[Eberhard]

Definitely sounds positive! Still some open questions, though, like what charge connector are they going to use (since the one they've shown won't support 3 phase) and why was getting any hint on something that's a technical no-brainer like pulling teeth? But it feels like talking about it before there's official word might jinx it.

The only current socket standard in Europe is the Mennekes Type 2. It may be an additional socket inside the car (like i wanted) keeping the official socket for DC-charging only.

 

[doug]

The only current socket standard in Europe is the Mennekes Type 2. It may be an additional socket inside the car (like i wanted) keeping the official socket for DC-charging only.

Standard??? :wink: Maybe it will just barely fit on the other side of the car.

 

[dpeilow]

Inside the car? What would you do, leave a door open?

 

[widodh]

Definitely sounds positive! Still some open questions, though, like what charge connector are they going to use (since the one they've shown won't support 3 phase) and why was getting any hint on something that's a technical no-brainer like pulling teeth? But it feels like talking about it before there's official word might jinx it.

Maybe they have made a second version of their plug which has a connector for the 2nd and 3rd phase? Who knows?

I however believe the sources I got this from are solid, for now I'm assuming the Model S will have 3-phase charging capabilities

 

[jkirkebo]

I just had a 1hr call with my contact and this is what I heard:

- The Model S EU will have 3-phase charging from 1st delivery (February 2013....)
- They will place a 3rd charger in the Model S, each charger draws power from a different phase
- Tesla's biggest problem was the price of adding the 3rd charger. So we'd probably be looking at a $3000 option for 3-phase charging

I don't like the sound of this...

3 chargers on different phases sounds like a wye-connection (loads between phase and neutral). This works well on 400V 3-phase which has a Neutral line. It will not work on 230V 3-phase which has no Neutral line and can only be delta-connected (loads between phases only).

230V 3-phase is most prevalent in Norway, few homes have 400V service.

I would prefer a delta-connected rectifier feeding a single charger, or two chargers connected in parallell. It would then work fine on both systems (IT/230V and TN/400V). This would also avoid the 3rd charger "problem". The car could have a Mennekes-port on one side connected to a 3-phase rectifier and the Tesla port on the other side connected to a single phase rectifier, then have the proper rectifier (the one with power to it) connected to the charger(s).