Future Charging for Model S 1-phase or 3-phase ?

[eledille]

It could be that 3-phase is allowed, although I don't think so.

Google: international standard IEC 62196. Check page 9 of top result. Mode 1 is up to 16 A, single or three phase, up to 690 V, any socket type allowed, no control signal or pilot pin required, no inline control box required. Disclaimer: This version is withdrawn, but this is the same as I've read elsewhere.

However, you will end up with a box in the cable like the Roadster has.

That seems to depend on whether local regulations are stricter than IEC-62196 or not, plus possibly whether the manufacturer wants to sell you expensive, unnecessary gear...

That box does the communication to the car and lets you charge on CEE 32A 5p.

For 32 A, a control box is required by IEC-62196, yes.

There will have to be some kind of logic outside the car, otherwise the car won't be able to detect the Amperage.

I think it's the other way around, but by all means please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm just an amateur and enthusiast. If the car tries to pull more than the socket is capable of, all that happens is that the fuse trips. The car decides how much current to draw - but if the car does not behave in accordance with the spec, the fuse will trip and its owner will be less than impressed. The protocol tells the car how much it can pull without tripping the fuse.

You could even make your own portable EVSE with the Open-EVSE project. That would be sufficient for 3-phase charging on any socket

Yes, and then pay an electrician to verify it, in order to not void the insurance... I'm joking, if prices are too high, then that might be a possibility.

 

[eledille]

You are right, but we have to cover the next 5-10 years until wireless charging will be common and DC quick charging is widely available. You know how frustrating it is waiting 6h for what can be done within 2h. (32A single phase versus 32A 3-phase)

DC charging will never become available where I want it the most - where I parked for the night. I believe that goes for inductive charging pads too - they cost too much and have too high losses compared to the tiny gain of not having to plug in.

Forget about inductive roads. That requires digging up every major road and installing precision electronics and enormous amounts of copper wire. This one takes the prize for worst case of range anxiety ever... We need to build high speed trains first.

Conductive charging is reliable and relatively inexpensive. It's all about mass production, and keep in mind that the 70 A single phase charger in the Roadster is a much more expensive piece of equipment than a 22 kW 3-p charger, even without motor drive integration.

And the charging standards have been a work in progress for more than 10 years now... This stuff takes time.

 

[dpeilow]

61851-1 ed 2 says:

Mode 1 charging: connection of the EV to the a.c. supply network (mains) utilizing
standardized socket-outlets not exceeding 16 A and not exceeding 250 V a.c. single-phase or
480 V a.c. three-phase, at the supply side, and utilizing the power and protective earth
conductors.

So it is allowed.

 

[widodh]

61851-1 ed 2 says:



So it is allowed.

Indeed. But going over 16A requires logic, otherwise the car won't go over 16A. So for that you will need something like a UMC with various pigtales for different sockets.

 

[eledille]

That is true.

But 16 A, 400 V three phase can take care of any overnight charging I will ever need at very low cost. Car manufacturers and potential customers in Japan, US, Norway, Brazil etc should also take note that any three phase voltage not exceeding 480 V is allowed - this includes 208 and 230 V. At 230 V this is 6.4 kW, which yields approximately 290 km in 8 hours, which helps a lot.

That doesn't mean that I don't need higher power than 16 A, just that a very inexpensive socket is sufficient in all sorts of garages, holiday homes, hotels etc. When I stop for lunch I want as much power as possible, of course.

 

[Eberhard]

i have agree, i found those sockets really everywhere, car stations, car wash and supermarket (waste press) and about 250 park&charge stations in germany and switzerland.

This socket would fill up even the 85kWh pack within 6h to 80% and 9h to 100%, thats more then enough for overnight charging. At my 32A socket, i would need 9h (80%) and 12h (100%), but I can charge my Roadster in parallel.

 

[widodh]

i have agree, i found those sockets really everywhere, car stations, car wash and supermarket (waste press) and about 250 park&charge stations in germany and switzerland.

This socket would fill up even the 85kWh pack within 6h to 80% and 9h to 100%, thats more then enough for overnight charging. At my 32A socket, i would need 9h (80%) and 12h (100%), but I can charge my Roadster in parallel.

Yes, 3x16A at 400V (11kW) should be more then sufficient for most charging needs.

I just wanted to point out that charging on a Red CEE 32A will not be possible without an external charging stations.

But I agree, 3x16A is most common, 3x32A is a bit more rare, but they are available!

 

[emq]

You are right, but we have to cover the next 5-10 years until wireless charging will be common and DC quick charging is widely available. You know how frustrating it is waiting 6h for what can be done within 2h. (32A single phase versus 32A 3-phase)

On long distances, a Saxo with 80km/h speed limit is quite faster with 22kW charging then my tesla.

I fully understand your point of view.

I do not understand the helplessness of Teslamotors to understand the europaen grid advantages.

 

[emq]

Mode 1, 1ph 16A max. is anymore a regular charging mode. Some countrys do not allow mode 1 at all.

Every massproduction manufactorer exept teslamotors handle Mode 1 as a non regular, emergency Mode with 6-10A 1ph max.

Mode 2 is pricipally allowed up to 32A 1ph, but most Mode 2 Incable Boxes limit 1ph charging at Mode 1 infrastructure 6-10A 1ph, because it is Mode 1 at Infrastructure Side.

Ampera/Volt mode 2 incable box was 6-16A 1ph 230V. They will disapear completly, replaced with a 6&10A Mode 2 IncableBox.

So forget a Mode 1 charging infrastructure higher 16A !!

I am sorry that this facts destoy your hopes for a teslamotors solution.

Teslamotors has to learn, that even a Steve Chops Strategy, does not cancel local rules.

 

[Eberhard]

Mode 1, 1ph 16A max. is anymore a regular charging mode. Some countrys do not allow mode 1 at all.

Every massproduction manufactorer exept teslamotors handle Mode 1 as a non regular, emergency Mode with 6-10A 1ph max.

Mode 2 is pricipally allowed up to 32A 1ph, but most Mode 2 Incable Boxes limit 1ph charging at Mode 1 infrastructure 6-10A 1ph, because it is Mode 1 at Infrastructure Side.

Ampera/Volt mode 2 incable box was 6-16A 1ph 230V. They will disapear completly, replaced with a 6&10A Mode 2 IncableBox.

So forget a Mode 1 charging infrastructure higher 16A !!

I am sorry that this facts destoy your hopes for a teslamotors solution.

Teslamotors has to learn, that even a Steve Chops Strategy, does not cancel local rules.

Thats really the problem with tesla, as JB Straubel told me, if i cannot do 1-ph charging with higher current > 16A, I have do to DC charging. hope he changed his mind.

 

[AndrewBissell]

*1*Mode 1, 1ph 16A max. is anymore a regular charging mode. Some countrys do not allow mode 1 at all.

*2*Every massproduction manufactorer exept teslamotors handle Mode 1 as a non regular, emergency Mode with 6-10A 1ph max.

Mode 2 is pricipally allowed up to 32A 1ph, but most Mode 2 Incable Boxes limit 1ph charging at Mode 1 infrastructure 6-10A 1ph, because it is Mode 1 at Infrastructure Side.

Ampera/Volt mode 2 incable box was 6-16A 1ph 230V. *3*They will disapear completly, replaced with a 6&10A Mode 2 IncableBox.

So forget a Mode 1 charging infrastructure higher 16A !!

I am sorry that this facts destoy your hopes for a teslamotors solution.

Teslamotors has to learn, that even a Steve Chops Strategy, does not cancel local rules.

emq: could you please give a source for each of *1* to *3* above?
Could you please also explain what a "Steve Chops Strategy" is?

It seems if you are right then this is not a problem for Tesla as much as a problem for the whole EV industry. If "bare sockets in the wild" are going to be forbidden for charging use because Mode 1 AND Mode 2 will be limited to 6 or 10 A then it means everyone has to install an EVSE everywhere that charging is wanted. This seems problematic.

 

[widodh]

emq: could you please give a source for each of *1* to *3* above?
Could you please also explain what a "Steve Chops Strategy" is?

It seems if you are right then this is not a problem for Tesla as much as a problem for the whole EV industry. If "bare sockets in the wild" are going to be forbidden for charging use because Mode 1 AND Mode 2 will be limited to 6 or 10 A then it means everyone has to install an EVSE everywhere that charging is wanted. This seems problematic.

With mass deployment of EV's safety is very important.

In NL Tesla recently limited the spare mobile connector to 13A while it used to do 16A. It's a bummer, but I do get the point. With 16A the outlet where you plugged in could get really hot.

So without any communication we might be limited to 13A sinlge or 3-phase. Is that bad? I don't think so. Safety is the key with mass-deployment of EV's.

Only CEE sockets (blue or red) are capable of handling 16A continuesly or even 32A (up to 63A). For those sockets we might get a mobile EVSE, just like the UMC is doing right now. But again, it could be that those won't be available due to safety regulations.

I personally wouldn't have a problem with the fact that we can only do >13A when an EVSE is present.

 

[AndrewBissell]

Wido: I agree about safety

Yet I am confused by the discussion. Is a portable EVSE not the same as mode 2?

However emq implies that mode 2 above 16A is forbidden.

So then a portable EVSE plugged into a 32A 30609 socket would be forbidden.

So this:

Only CEE sockets (blue or red) are capable of handling 16A continuesly or even 32A (up to 63A). For those sockets we might get a mobile EVSE, just like the UMC is doing right now.

Would be forbidden.

Do you think that's really safety driven if it's forbidden? I think it's worrying.

 

[widodh]

Wido: I agree about safety

Yet I am confused by the discussion. Is a portable EVSE not the same as mode 2?

Indeed, a portable EVSE is mode 2.

So, with mode 3 there will be no problem at all since the EVSE is permanently installed.

But we could still see a mode 2 charger, but only with CEE sockets at the end. Those are designed for contiues power.

 

[dpeilow]

At this rate I can see that I'm going to post 61851-1 ed2 one paragraph at a time...

Mode 1 charging: connection of the EV to the a.c. supply network (mains) utilizing
standardized socket-outlets not exceeding 16 A and not exceeding 250 V a.c. single-phase or
480 V a.c. three-phase, at the supply side, and utilizing the power and protective earth
conductors.

NOTE 2 In the following countries, mode 1 charging is prohibited by national codes: US.

NOTE 3 The use of an in-cable RCD can be used to add supplementary protection for connection to existing a.c.
supply networks.

NOTE 4 Some countries may allow the use of an RCD of type AC for mode 1 vehicles connected to existing
domestic installations: JP, SE.


Mode 2 charging: connection of the EV to the a.c. supply network (mains) not exceeding
32 A and not exceeding 250 V a.c. single-phase or 480 V a.c. three-phase utilizing
standardized single-phase or three-phase socket-outlets, and utilizing the power and
protective earth conductors together with a control pilot function and system of personnel protection
against electric shock (RCD) between the EV and the plug or as a part of the in-cable control box. The
inline control box shall be located within 0,3 m of the plug or the EVSE or in the plug.

NOTE 5 In the USA, a device which measures leakage current over a range of frequencies and trips at predefined
levels of leakage current, based upon the frequency is required.

NOTE 6 In the following countries, according to national codes, additional requirements are necessary to allow
cord and plug connection to a.c. supply networks greater than 20 A, 125 V a.c.: US.

NOTE 7 For mode 2, portable RCD as defined in IEC 61540 and IEC 62335 is applicable.

NOTE 8 In Germany the inline control box (EVSE) shall be in the plug or located within 2,0 m of the plug.

Mode 3 charging: connection of the EV to the a.c. supply network (mains) utilizing dedicated
EVSE where the control pilot function extends to control equipment in the EVSE, permanently
connected to the a.c. supply network (mains) .

Mode 4 charging: connection of the EV to the a.c. supply network (mains) utilizing an offboard
charger where the control pilot function extends to equipment permanently connected
to the a.c. supply.

Some people here say they are posting from positions of authority - can they perhaps advise as to whether they have newer IEC documentation?


Andrew, emq's 1, 2 and 3 are correct, although some cars may not charge with mode 1 at all.

A "Steve Chops" (sic) strategy is to ignore industry or regulatory standards and do your own thing.

 

[eledille]

So forget a Mode 1 charging infrastructure higher 16A !!

I see nothing against 16 A three phase mode 1 here? It's allowed by the charging standards and explicitly allowed in the German EV infrastructure plan.

I completely agree that Schuko should not be used at 16 A, but IEC60309 connectors are a different matter.

Do you mean that charging from IEC60309 400V 3-phase 16 A sockets is forbidden even with in-cable control box?

 

[AndrewBissell]

At this rate I can see that I'm going to post 61851-1 ed2 one paragraph at a time...




Some people here say they are posting from positions of authority - can they perhaps advise as to whether they have newer IEC documentation?


Andrew, emq's 1, 2 and 3 are correct, although some cars may not charge with mode 1 at all.

A "Steve Chops" (sic) strategy is to ignore industry or regulatory standards and do your own thing.

David. Thanks for the detailed answer and the use of primary sources (which is refreshing versus some other posters who merely "appeal to authority" as you put it).

I am still though not sure on emq's 1,2 and 3. Maybe I am reading them differently due to interpolating where I think language difficulties have warped the sense of things.

For 1 I read "anymore" as "not any longer". David your primary source says only the US forbids mode 1. emq says countries ( Plural). Also wasn't the context Europe. Yet your source implies no European countries ban mode 1.

For 2

*2*Every massproduction manufactorer exept teslamotors handle Mode 1 as a non regular, emergency Mode with 6-10A 1ph max.

Does Tesla view it as anything but emergency mode? They certainly don't encourage it's regular use.

For 3

Ampera/Volt mode 2 incable box was 6-16A 1ph 230V. *3*They will disapear completly, replaced with a 6&10A Mode 2 IncableBox.

Where was this announced?

I find emq's statements frustrating (perhaps for lack of referencing). He seems to imply at every turn that EV charging is both unsafe and essentially forbidden unless done via EVSEs in modes 3 or 4. Now that seems to fly in the face of experience and actual regulation (thanks to David for quoting from it). It could be that language barriers are stopping me understanding what emq really means but I am finding his inputs frustrating. I can understand why JB Straubel and others may not have wanted to spend time considering unreferenced opinion.

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

I know from the work that at least two EVSE suppliers are undertaking that new Mode 1 and Mode 2 products are in active development for at least three different vehicle manufacturers. This includes equipment that is rated at 10A, 16A, and 32A, and will be sold with new vehicles in the European market.

I see nothing in the recent standard updates, or EVSE product development commissioned by the vehicle manufacturers, that supports the notion that AC charging in Mode 1 and Mode 2 will be disallowed in the forceable future.

 

[dpeilow]

I first found out that Vauxhall/Opel were downgrading their mode two charger from 16A max to 10A max at the "e-pioneer" event in early December. It will support 6A and 10A charging. This is fine for overnight use for that car (note the car still supports 16A charging on the proper EVSE).

The reasoning behind this is that they say they have had heating issues when pulling 13A from a UK 13A socket for hours at a time. Andrew - I know you said you experienced something similar.

Subsequently Vauxhall updated their FAQ.

The charge cord sets are being changed from four (6/10/13/16 A) to two charging rate options: 10 A & 6 A. Why is Vauxhall limiting recharging of the Ampera with the charge cord to ten amps?

In order to avoid potential problems based on private electrical installations, we have decided to limit the charging rate of the Ampera at ordinary plug sockets to a maximum of 10 A. Before charging at more than 6 A, you should have your electrical installation checked and approved by a qualified electrician.


Why is Vauxhall limiting recharging to a maximum of 10 A from a typical socket with the Voltec portable cord set?

Experience and testing have shown that the quality of plug sockets is not uniform and as such that they cannot support trouble-free 16 A charging on a regular basis. In order to ensure a trouble-free charging experience for our customers, we have decided to limit portable cord set charging to maximum 10 A.

More questions and answers are on the site.


I recently heard that Renault are also limiting their charger to 10A max and I believe that Nissan does the same.

 

[eledille]

I first found out that Vauxhall/Opel were downgrading their mode two charger from 16A max to 10A max at the "e-pioneer" event in early December. It will support 6A and 10A charging. This is fine for overnight use for that car (note the car still supports 16A charging on the proper EVSE).

The reasoning behind this is that they say they have had heating issues when pulling 13A from a UK 13A socket for hours at a time. Andrew - I know you said you experienced something similar.

I recently heard that Renault are also limiting their charger to 10A max and I believe that Nissan does the same.

I have no problems with that decision as long as we can pull 16 A from the IEC60309 sockets. The Schuko, which is the standard socket in Norway, is rated for 16 A, but will overheat if it's not in perfect shape. When pulling 16 A for hours the pins of a perfectly maintained socket will reach 70 degrees C. That isn't dangerous in itself, but over time temperature cycling causes the screws to come loose and springs to go slack, and all of a sudden you have a fire hazard. Also, some people pull the plug during charging, which causes sparking and soot buildup. This leads to poor contact and overheating over time. I've had to replace a cable because it had melted and fused to the socket. Worse, a couple of years ago the ferry between Denmark and Norway had a fire on the car deck because of an EV and an overheated Schuko. Luckily nobody died, but many cars on that deck were totaled due to smoke and heat. At 10 A there is usually no problems.

The IEC60309 sockets are quite a different matter. They have enormous pins with a huge contact area compared to the Schuko and stay cool at max current. I can see absolutely no problems allowing 16 A, 400 V 3-phase with inline control box/rcd. Even if you repeatedly pull the plug during charging there is no way you can dirty up those enormous pins to the point where you get overheating.

So then I suppose the question is how to limit current to 10 A for anything that is not IEC60309 or better, while allowing 16 A for the more powerful connectors.