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yes, i am happy. JB Straubel promised this to me, when i met him first a year ago in Milan. But on our next meeting 1.oct he left me very confused and disappointed. it was a long way until today to learn that he finally understood whats is needed herein Europe.
Mitrovic
Member
Well, I thought I will wait for the Model X. But now with 3 phase charging I really will have a close look at the Model S in Geneva!
All the forthcoming Nissan chargers will have 43kW 3 phase as well.
Tonight it was confirmed to me by Renault that the Zoe will have 43kW 3 phase charging.
Come on Tesla, if the cheapest of the new generation of mass produced EVs can manage this, I am sure you can.
Tonight it was confirmed to me by Renault that the Zoe will have 43kW 3 phase charging.
Come on Tesla, if the cheapest of the new generation of mass produced EVs can manage this, I am sure you can.
I guess the 3 phase will be with the house mounted fastcharger, not the build into the car - this way they can still use the new Tesla plug. They convert the 3 phase to DC before it goes to the charge cable/plug.
This is a good solution, witch will work at home or at work - at shopping centers or other public places they will proberbly not offer 3 phases anyway....
Im very happy that they decided to offer this
This is a good solution, witch will work at home or at work - at shopping centers or other public places they will proberbly not offer 3 phases anyway....
Im very happy that they decided to offer this
That wouldn't be three phase charging - that would be DC charging.
This announcement means that it will be possible to plug three phase AC power directly to the car and charge it. Which seems quite useful, as long as the DC charging infrastructure is at it's infancy. In 10 years we might never use three phase AC charging anymore, but in the transition period it will be more or less indispensable.
This announcement means that it will be possible to plug three phase AC power directly to the car and charge it. Which seems quite useful, as long as the DC charging infrastructure is at it's infancy. In 10 years we might never use three phase AC charging anymore, but in the transition period it will be more or less indispensable.
There will always be three phase charging, be it at home, the office car park or at restaurants and hotels.
I wouldn't put money on it. DC charging is inherently better, as you can reduce the amount of weight in the car substantially, which increases range. And it's fast.
The thing about DC charging though is the fact it requires a large expensive dedicated charging infrastructure. The question is if it ever reaches the point where AC charging can be left unsupported entirely. This would require having DC chargers basically everywhere.
The thing about DC charging though is the fact it requires a large expensive dedicated charging infrastructure. The question is if it ever reaches the point where AC charging can be left unsupported entirely. This would require having DC chargers basically everywhere.
What if the onboard charger, perhaps as part of the regen system or perhaps through GaN, became so lightweight as to not matter?
Norbert
TSLA will win
Not surprised Tesla does eventually offer some kind of support, in each case of CHAdeMO and 3-phase... always thought they were working at least on evaluating possible solutions, or on prototypes (or perhaps negotiating third-party solutions in the case of 3-phase). However I am surprised that the Jan/Feb timeframe for the SuperCharger announcement passed without further mention, and that it will now take place later than the CHAdeMO and 3-phase kind-of-announcements.
We've been through this about a million times already
The main points are:
1) All the cars already contain a huge three phase inverter/voltage regulator anyway. The regeneration circuit takes three phase AC from the motor and charges the battery with it. You might need to change it a little here and there, and you need a large contactor to switch between the grid and the motor for charging, and you must include the charging algorithm into the inverter (as of today it just stuffs electricity into the battery, control must be finer when it's being used as the standard charger). But basically all the needed components except for the contactor are already present.
2) Three phase power is already present practically everywhere.
3) Even if you have to buy a separate three phase charger, you get twice the power for your money compared to a single phase charger.
Renault has been building such an integrated inverter/charger for a couple of years, and the Zoe demonstrates the result. 17k GBP before the 5k EV incentive yields a final price of 12k GBP, batteries not included. It includes a 43 kW three phase charger as standard, and the whole car costs less than a CHAdeMO charger.
DC is better only when the onboard inverter can't handle the required power, which begins at around 50-60 kW.
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Oh, I wouldn't put money on DC, either. My point is that it's still to early to be sure about where the charging infrastructure ends up. All we know is that right now, adding three phase AC is the smart thing to do.
The Model S already contains a three phase inverter, but what about the cars using DC engines? DC charging suits every EV, as it's linked to the battery and not the motor. We will see charging infrastucture becoming more and more harmonized, and it's hard to predict the result.
The Model S already contains a three phase inverter, but what about the cars using DC engines? DC charging suits every EV, as it's linked to the battery and not the motor. We will see charging infrastucture becoming more and more harmonized, and it's hard to predict the result.
Should probably point out that from what we've seen of the Model S drivetrain, the inverter is connected directly to the motor (through the diff casing). The only power cables are coming from the battery. I think this is fine because it allows Tesla to take a more modular approach with the charger, based on customer needs.
Also I believe the Roadster 1.x did some of what you're talking about. Tesla licensed AC Propulsion's Reductive(TM) Charging technology. But that ended with Roadster 2.0.
I can't imagine that any european Tesla employees truly believe that they can deliver a useful proprietary DC Fast Charge network across europe. Without AC fast charge support Tesla will never compete with mass market cars like the ZOE even if they had a suitable car to do so.
Tesla really need to stop wasting valuable time and effort on falcon doors and focus on critical technology that enables EV's to transition to the mass market.
I know. But adding another set of cables should not be a huge problem. If they need more space for the inverter when it includes the charger, then there might be a problem.
Not if it forces them to charge the customer USD 3000 extra with zero margin. But I have no idea how much more space would be required or whether it's feasible to sell different versions of the inverter.
The Reductive Charger technology is a smart way to handle the problem of smoothing high current single phase power. They used the motor windings to smooth the rectifier output, if I'm not mistaken. When you have three phase input you don't have that problem.
A DC-input non-regenerative AC motor drive contains a set of power transistors to drive the three phases of the motor. A regenerative drive for a 3-phase motor must also include a 3-phase rectifier for the motor output and a second set of power transistors to drive the battery. The regeneration circuitry produces regulated DC voltage from 3-phase AC, which is exactly the same as what a DC charger does.
I'm sure the whole inverter must be redesigned and re-optimised, but the same components can be used for both regen and charging. Some coarse schematics from both RWE and Renault have been posted on this forum earlier, but I can't remember where. I have tried to find more detailed schematics, but it's hard to find exactly the right one. Most of them are designed for AC input instead of batteries, some use AC to drive a DC motor, etc.
I'm reading the discussion about the charging being inside the invertor/motor electronics. That is possible as Renault is showing, but Tesla decided to use seperate chargers in the Model S.
If they are going to install 3 10kW chargers somewhow the Model S should (in theory!) be able to handle 30kW.
That's 3x40A at 230V/400V.
I still think they'll limit the Model S at 3x32A, but I would be blown away if it would support 3x63A.
DC and AC charging will always co-exist I think. DC might be used for the really fast charging >50kW, but <50kW will stay AC. It's cheap and WIDELY available.
If they are going to install 3 10kW chargers somewhow the Model S should (in theory!) be able to handle 30kW.
That's 3x40A at 230V/400V.
I still think they'll limit the Model S at 3x32A, but I would be blown away if it would support 3x63A.
DC and AC charging will always co-exist I think. DC might be used for the really fast charging >50kW, but <50kW will stay AC. It's cheap and WIDELY available.
12kg? that's the weight of the 22kW Brusa Charger, less then one of Teslas onbord charger which are 15kg each.
DC charging makes only sense with high power like 90kW quick charging, but then it would be better to draw the power form the medium voltage of 10kV or 20kV system via a AC - DC Converter down to 500V DV, saving the need and avoiding the loss (3-5%) of a transformer.
This may work for future quick charging stations on highways to replace the current gas station.
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Renault has patented the charger. To what extent that excludes others from doing something similar I don't know. They are so proud of it that they have given it a name of its own: Chameleon.
But regardless of what Renault is doing, Teslas announcement of three phase support is great news.
At 16 A, I will be able to use the full range of Model S on consecutive days and extend range by 60 km while having lunch.
At 32 A, I will be able to extend range by 120 km per hour. That makes real-world 500 km range practical.
At 63 A, I would have unlimited mobility.
But regardless of what Renault is doing, Teslas announcement of three phase support is great news.
At 16 A, I will be able to use the full range of Model S on consecutive days and extend range by 60 km while having lunch.
At 32 A, I will be able to extend range by 120 km per hour. That makes real-world 500 km range practical.
At 63 A, I would have unlimited mobility.
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doug: Correction: For a while I thought that the Reductive Charger used the regen. I know now that it used the motor windings for smoothing and that it does not handle three phase, but I don't know what else it does. It might be that it uses parts of the regen. There was speculation that AC Propulsion might have patents that influenced three phase charging using the regen. Seems like they didn't.
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