General Discussion: 2018 Investor Roundtable

[jhm]

The IPace seems more designed to compete with Model Y. The odd accelerate and break test is an obvious way to favor a lighter car. So Jaguar was simply exploiting the size and weight of the Model X. But the Model Y will be a different story.

Which one will hit the market first? This could be a nice little contest Musk would not want to lose.

In any case, it is nice to see Tesla getting respect as the one to beat. Cadillac is also advertising its version of autopilot explicitly against Tesla.

 

[myusername]

while this is fun to watch... can I ask a very simple question... what does drag racing have to do with saving the planet?... please don't tell me it's because the only way to make humans do the right thing is if they also look cool and rich while doing.

 

[RobStark]

If you are interested in Tesla Pickup's competitive landscape watch the short vid below.

 

[renim]

the IPACE still seems niche. Its 5 seats so it somewhere between a Tesla 3 and an Tesla S. Thats painful territory for a premium EV to sit within.

If IPACE actually does require 90kWh to achieve the GM Bolt's 60kWh range, then .....there LEAF 2.0 and Kona etc.

 

[RobStark]

If IPACE actually does require 90kWh to achieve the GM Bolt's 60kWh range, then .....there LEAF 2.0 and Kona etc.

Bolt is subcompact hatchback
Kona is subcompact CUV with 64 kWh pack and slow.
LEAF is a compact hatchback and kinda slow. At least with 40 kWh. We shall see about the bigger 64 kWh? pack.

I-Pace is a compact CUV and is quick.

CUVs are going to be less aerodynamic and need more kWh for the same range as cars.

 

[Big Earl]

Bolt is subcompact hatchback
Kona is subcompact CUV with 64 kWh pack and slow.
LEAF is a compact hatchback and kinda slow. At least with 40 kWh. We shall see about the bigger 64 kWh? pack.

I-Pace is a compact CUV and is quick.

CUVs are going to be less aerodynamic and need more kWh for the same range as cars.

Not to mention wheel options ranging from 18" up to 22" with performance tires. The relatively short gearing (124 mph top speed) probably contributes to some additional drivetrain inefficiency. It's also possible that they're playing it safe and not using the entire 90 kWh pack.

All-in-all, the I-Pace looks like a very good Model Y competitor. Given how popular CUVs are right now, Jaguar certainly picked a good vehicle to use for their EV debut.

 

[renim]

the I-PACE reportably has the same aero coefficient as a Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV. thats good for a diesel SUV but bad for a pure EV.

the i-PACE seems to straddle between the Tesla 3 and Tesla S. thats a difficult market to compete in with an efficiency penalty upping the price of batteries.

 

[MTL_HABS1909]

I wish people would stop criticizing the I-Pace. It will take buyers away from ICE SUVs, and virtually none from Model X. I don’t like SUVs, but lots of people do, and the Model X is too big or too expensive for them. I-Pace gives them a smaller, cheaper option.

Except it’s not cheaper, hence the criticism....

The company hasn’t released all the prices per market yet and says that it will reveal more at the Geneva Auto Show next week. But Jaguar retailers can apparently already take orders right now and the prices have been reported in the UK:

• Jaguar i-Pace S: £63,495 (~$87,000 USD)
• Jaguar i-Pace SE: £69,495 (~$95,400 USD)
• Jaguar i-Pace HSE: £74,495 (~$102,200 USD)

Jaguar officially unveils production version of all-electric I-Pace: 240-mile range, 100 kW charging, and more

 

[dhrivnak]

The Bolt is a subcompact like the Kona.

The I-Pace is compact CUV whereas the Model 3 is a compact sedan.

European automakers should be quoting WLTP for range which is just slightly more optimistic than EPA (1-4%).

EPA gives the Model 3 a slight edge of 97 vs 94 cubic ft. But gives the Bolt more luggage at 23 vs 13 so they are pretty comparable

Compare Side-by-Side

 

[elasalle]

They raced a MX 100D in the same video also, and it got beat by the i-Pace by the same amount as the 75D, buy ~ 1 car length, compare 2:00 and 2:45 mark.

Thanks. I wish there was a way for me to disagree with my own stmt

 

[RobStark]

Jaguar sacrificed some Cd in order to get more conventional looks. It looks like an ICEv up front.

The short gearing and probably playing it safe with battery pack management software also contributes to inefficiency.

Model Y will start at a little over half the price of I-Pace. I am not sure I would call that direct competition, although all new cars compete indirectly with all other new cars.

 

[EinSV]

IPace is a Model Y competitor priced like a Model X, designed to not look like a Jaguar or to compete with Range Rover. Probably twice as expensive as a Model Y.

Good luck with that.

 

[RobStark]

EPA gives the Model 3 a slight edge of 97 vs 94 cubic ft. But gives the Bolt more luggage at 23 vs 13 so they are pretty comparable

Compare Side-by-Side

I am talking about exterior dimensions not EPA interior size categories.

Tiny two box cars can have more interior volume than much bigger three box cars. Just as a matter of form factor.

Bolt length 164"
Model 3 .....184.8"

Bolt width 69.6"
Model 3....72.8"

This matters when it comes to functional overall comfort. Although manufactures can manipulate the stats with narrow upright uncomfortable seats and giving you lots of room above and around your head that is quite useless.

 

[Reciprocity]

while this is fun to watch... can I ask a very simple question... what does drag racing have to do with saving the planet?... please don't tell me it's because the only way to make humans do the right thing is if they also look cool and rich while doing.

Because people like a car that can actually merge onto a freeway in California. It's always a bit if a drag race. If you ever drove a car with this much torque, you would understand why people like it. It's not about racing but about decisiveness. Think it and it happens. If you drive a Prius, you think it, floor it for 5 minutes then merge into traffic.

 

[Reciprocity]

Based on the electrek article on the ipace, the price is higher then I thought, but likely includes VAT. So any price comparison should include vat or back it out to compare to US prices. Vat can be as high as 20% so keep that in mind. It also had 3 trims that have a wide range of prices so it would be interesting to do more of apples to apples comparison based on features and price. It's still very expensive for it's size and range but not as bad as I initially thought. It depends a lot on what HSE means.

 

[Esme Es Mejor]

Except it’s not cheaper, hence the criticism....

Good point. I was thinking of the $75k that had been mentioned previously. $87k puts it at more expensive than the 75D, but cheaper than the 100D. It will still appeal to many the Model X doesn’t appeal to, take most of its buyers from ICE SUVs, and prep a whole lot of people for buying Model Y in the future.

 

[SteveG3]

When it comes to the idea of "competition," whether Jaguar, GM, BMW, etc., it makes an enormous difference to recognize that

- other automakers reaching the point that they produce EVs that are as attractive as Teslas (which we are nearing, at least on some metrics)

is not the same as

- other automakers producing EVs as attractive as Teslas at volumes that impact Tesla's blistering growth in unit sales and revenues.

The latter, I don't see happening for at least a decade.

This is not to say smaller portions of the market, i.e., where the Model S sits, wont see growth curtailed by other automakers vehicles sooner... but, overall Tesla unit and revenue growth has a tremendous amount of runway before what other automakers do will make a difference. Outside of China, I'm very confident under 25% of new vehicles sold in 2025 will be 200+ mile range EVs. The incumbents would rather sell ICE, and it looks like they'll broaden that to selling plenty of ICE plug-in hybrids over time as laws give them no choice, but, near universally, the last thing they want to do is open wide the spigot of long range pure EVs. The incumbents effective ability to act as if an oligopoly and not supply the product that consumers will prefer surely within a few years, is one of Tesla's massive moats.

 

[RobStark]

This is not a rare on ramp in Los Angeles.

In an average car you floor it and hope other drivers slow down and let you merge.

That silver Prius is going to say at least three Hail Marys.

A Model S can merge with confidence.

 

[Reciprocity]

Except it’s not cheaper, hence the criticism....

The company hasn’t released all the prices per market yet and says that it will reveal more at the Geneva Auto Show next week. But Jaguar retailers can apparently already take orders right now and the prices have been reported in the UK:

• Jaguar i-Pace S: £63,495 (~$87,000 USD)
• Jaguar i-Pace SE: £69,495 (~$95,400 USD)
• Jaguar i-Pace HSE: £74,495 (~$102,200 USD)

Jaguar officially unveils production version of all-electric I-Pace: 240-mile range, 100 kW charging, and more

Prices in GBP might include vat. So a fair comparison would require that we figure that out for sure and back that out. I wonder what the difference is trims is. What makes the HSE so expensive. Vat can be as high as 20% so the HSE would be more inline with model X 75D in terms of price.

 

[Skryll]

Except it’s not cheaper, hence the criticism....

The company hasn’t released all the prices per market yet and says that it will reveal more at the Geneva Auto Show next week. But Jaguar retailers can apparently already take orders right now and the prices have been reported in the UK:

• Jaguar i-Pace S: £63,495 (~$87,000 USD)
• Jaguar i-Pace SE: £69,495 (~$95,400 USD)
• Jaguar i-Pace HSE: £74,495 (~$102,200 USD)

Jaguar officially unveils production version of all-electric I-Pace: 240-mile range, 100 kW charging, and more

Hvilken I-Pace utgave er mest for pengene? S, SE, HSE eller First Edition? has pictures of the english specs for the trims surrounded by viking language