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General Discussion: 2018 Investor Roundtable

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I know you're going for humor (and I admit as well, I smiled too), the two things you're comparing are straight up different. Tesla has made a statement about what happened in one particular 7 day period, and a corresponding statement of intent about what will happen in the following 7 day period. (They also said something about the total activity in the previous quarter in total).

I too take Tesla's statement as the highest confidence statement about what will actually happen over those two weeks, and clearly that's different than Bloomberg's model.


Bloomberg's model is also saying something about the weeks leading up to the 2 week window Tesla has said something about, and will continue saying something about the weeks after Tesla isn't talking and providing high confidence information. Is Bloomberg's model right? Of course not. The famous quote "all models are wrong, some models are useful" applies here as it does everywhere.

And I find the Bloomberg model output very useful, even for this 2 week window when its clearly wrong.

If we understand the model and its input, then we can even predict now what it will look like in a couple of weeks when the Tesla statement and 1 week forecast show up in real data in the real world.

Or we can look at the model and compare it to what Tesla has said, as well as other independent metrics from the world, to get better at reading the tea leaves. At least to me, this is a valuable contribution to the larger view of ramp activity. I like receiving better than bad or misleading quality information on a daily or more frequent basis, in addition to high quality information once or twice a quarter.

I also expect the frequent and non-authoritatively source information to have a lot more variation in it
Tesla stated goals and forward looking statements are subject to scrutiny as the company is publicly held.

Bloomberg's model is for entertainment purposes only and based on incomplete data. It's it is real news then this too could be held up for scrutiny...
 
I don't expect China to revalue their currency to balance trade with US. Why would they do that?

Sure, US can devalue the dollar dramatically to balance trade, which means huge inflation. That's why US families will shoulder the huge debt one way or another. Inflation is one way, we and future generations all suffer the consequence. It's very similar to how a family is run, if I earn $3000 a month, consuming $5000 a month is not very smart.

I think both sides know how urgent the situation is. China has to stop some of the unfair practice. This "trade war" will end pretty soon.

Without trying to formulate a position on lots of other details within this very large topic, there is one point I would like to raise. That being that comparing US government debt to household debt is a comparison of two fundamentally different things.

In the extreme, households that become debt-free or even have a surplus are a good thing. It's rather important in fact for households as they're coming up on retirement to exist in a net surplus.

The US government, which issues the currency that US dollar users make use of though, is in a fundamentally different situation. It creates the currency. And yes, its reasonable to worry about the government creating too much currency - that's not currently an issue. The evidence being the very moderate to low level of inflation we've experienced for years. That can change in the future, and should continue to be monitored.

There's an accounting idea here that helps with this - every asset is matched up with a liability - every liability matches up with an asset. The bank that loaned me money that I'm using to own a house has an asset on its books that matches up with the liability on my household's books. Our net position on that deal nets to zero. But there's a lot more economic activity associated with the bank loaning me the money, and me using it to buy a house.

The $20 bill in my pocket is an asset of mine. It's a liability of the US government, as are all of the cash, bills, bonds, etc.. that have been issued by the US govt. For the government to pay off all of its liabilities will require that all of the short and long term bills and bonds be redeemed / paid off and not reissued. That means all of the funds or direct buyers of those financial instruments will, in this extreme, have no assets to invest in. A highly non-desirable state - they'll have to go looking for "good as cash" investments somewhere else. And then the government, to achieve 0 debt, will need to continue by taking cash out of the system (probably in the form of tax payments) until there's no more cash in the system either. Also clearly a bad state to arrive in, as the economy would have seized up and gone to a barter system long before all the cash is gone. Eventually the government reclaims my $20 bill too.


For a dramatically better and more rigorous discussion, I commend:
Understanding the Modern Monetary System by Cullen O. Roche :: SSRN


A different but relevant observation is about inflation. Inflation is an imperfect measure of the change in value of money in the world. It's important, but its also important to understand the limitations. A simplistic example - a USD today is clearly less valuable than a dollar in 1900 or 1800 (or whenver we started tracking inflation). Clear evidence of how our dollars buy less today than they did yesterday.

Here's a site that'll calculate the price today of something bought as early as 1913:
US Inflation Calculator

($20 in 1913 is $503 today).

So we'r'e worse off today than then, right? Except that technology brings us stuff today that on this scale is literally priceless. If somehow you had a claim on every increment of value in 1913, you still couldn't buy the communications capability afforded today by a common cell phone. That $503 cell phone today couldn't have been bought in 1913 for $20, or $20k, or $20M, or $20B, or $20T. It didn't exist in any form, much less be so widespread that if you don't have one today, then there's something weird about you :)

That also doesn't mean that inflation can or should be ignored - just that like any metric, it measures some ideas well, and other ideas badly or not at all.
 
OT: Has anyone thought about turning this blog to social media feeds into twitter, FB etc ? I think they are tools for this.
Just saying, because it would be an excellent way to fight the FUD. More followers, more tweets - a viscous cycle ... just a suggestion
(only drawback might be that no one might visit TMC anymore ;) )

~ Cheers!!
 
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If(When) gas prices rise 15-20% between now and summer of 2019, I wonder how this will affect those who want to shift to more fuel efficient vehicles? Will they have the PHEVs ready by that point and be able to scale them up? Or will they lose further market share at that point?

Chevy Trax subcompact CUV gets 25 city MPG and 33 highway.

Lincoln MKC compact CUV gets 21 city MPG and 28 highway.

I guess they figure that is good enough even at $4/gallon.
 
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I understand some investors suffered during this round of short attack. The best revenge against them is to implement a sound plan, don't let them get you again. Every time you lose money, the money went to their accounts.

If we all act right, they won't be able to make money. They would actually lose money: borrowing interest, money to "PR companies", money to media (paying them to write attack articles), opportunity cost, etc.

My approach is buy and hold only, keep adding with new cash. If this goes to $500 tomorrow, I am not selling. I will hold for 10 years and see what they can do.

If it goes to $500 tomorrow you better believe I’m selling! And would immediate pick up more TWTR at $28.
 
GM, Ford to drop 4 car nameplates, report says

Chevrolet and Ford Division to discontinue subcompact and full size passenger cars in the USA in favor of pickups, SUVs,and CUVs. Ford Division may also discontinue midsize Fusion.

Insane how short-sighted this move is. EPA standards could be tightened under the next administration, let alone the popularity of EVs growing more quickly than they anticipate. The stars are aligning for Tesla in the 2020s.
 
Insane how short-sighted this move is. EPA standards could be tightened under the next administration, let alone the popularity of EVs growing more quickly than they anticipate. The stars are aligning for Tesla in the 2020s.

IMHO, they are keeping their prime cash cows, and phasing out the low profit models. That could actually free up resources for them to do more EV stuff ..
 
no chance.
Started at around $310, wont even think of covering before 100$

The little short squeeze try yesterday is already over again. There will be no more growth in china

As soon as the market realizes that yesterdays report was a catastrophe, tesla will continue downward.

Even former uber-bull Adam Jonas doesnt believe Musks BS about no capital needed and still expects at least a 2,5b raise.

:oops:
 
I think you're confusing long term investing, and trading. As a long term investor, it is absolutely the case that I missed out on the trading opportunity afforded by selling in the 380's and buying back in at the 250's. I also missed out on the tax ramifications of selling, the incremental work on next year's taxes of reporting the sales, paying the appropriate taxes. I also missed out on the daily / weekly / monthly worry / energy that goes into evaluating whether now is the time to trade or not.

And all of this is a backwards looking view that presumes that I knew at 380 that it was a time to sell because the next big move would be down (rather than up) AND that I knew at 250 that it was time to buy because the next big move would be up (rather than down).


As a long term investor in Tesla, my time scale is about 10 years today (it was 10+years when I started, and the intervening years have served to keep the range constant at 10+).

I have an intermediate check point that I currently expect to arrive sometime in 2019 and will be marked by M3 achieving strong production volumes, and will be marked by US consumers being able to order and receive an M3 without already being on the reservation list in say 3 months or less (so still a big backlog - just that we'll start seeing signs the backlog is kind of clearing). The current ramp noise, for me, is noise - M3 is ramping (fast or slow can be argued), and what I was looking for in the most recent quarterly production #'s, fast enough to probably avoid a cap raise to fund the ramp. The long term thesis is right on track.

I do follow the company closely, looking for evidence that my fundamental investment thesis has become invalidated. The M3 ramp hasn't changed anything for me and the long term thesis.

My time scale isn't necessarily that of other long term investors. I do figure that the bare minimum time scale for a long term investor is around 1-2 years (the furthest out LEAP is just barely far enough out to be minimally usable for a long term investor). But that's my view of time, and I don't trade in LEAPs (I've thought about it).

Along the way, I've ridden the stock price from the 20's to the high 100's, back down to the low 100's, up to the 200's, back down, up into the 300's, back down, and sideways for long stretches. If I'd been able to call all of those local highs and lows, and traded them, wow. All that's happened along the way is two additional situations where we had available cash, and a local thought that the company was unrealistically cheap, so it was time to buy more. We bought more in the 160's while the stock was in the middle of sliding from 180/90's to 130's (ouch!). We bought more in the 330's that subsequently went into the 310's, the 380's, and now the 250's. Never a bad night's sleep from excitement about highs or lows, because I don't have evidence of the long term investment thesis changing.

Trading on the 380 to 250 drop would have required knowledge I didn't have at any time along the way, energy invested in following daily movements REALLY closely, etc..

I don't know when Tesla will trade at 3k+ - only that I see a company with access to big enough markets, good enough technology, and the right culture (mostly), to take big share in those markets, at big margins (for those markets), that can expand by another 10 bagger from here. For a 10 bagger, I only need to be kind of right on the timing and scale - if it takes 10 years and grows 5x, I'm ok with that.


My read on the current quarterly hyperventilation is that it won't matter even in a year to the long term trend. It matters deeply to the traders. (Side bar - there's a reason I don't read the Market Action thread). Tesla is expanding the number of produced and delivered units by a lot this quarter. And will expand them further by a lot in Q2.


My really unrealistic, far out there expectation, is that Tesla might not be the first company to $1T market cap, but we WILL see it become the largest publicly traded company in the world by market cap. My guess is 5-10 years, but being "conservative", 2 decades. Oh, and it'll clear $1T. The markets are too big, the technology is too good, the company is too aggressive, and the incumbents are too passive. I'm happy to hang around for 3 years or 30 for a 20-30 bagger from here.

I’m with you on this. This is why shorts could never win this tug of war battle, eventually they have to cover or bail for profits sake. Longs will just ride out the waves and add more along the way, padding their profits... Predicting the top and lows is pure gambling. If someone can do this on a daily or monthly basis, then they can make millions/arguably billions off trading. My guess is absolutely NO ONE is that good, it’s called luck.
 
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If it goes to $500 tomorrow you better believe I’m selling! And would immediate pick up more TWTR at $28.
That's fine.

I look at their market cap and try to think what's the risk and upside potential. Tesla's market cap is 45B, and it's a trillion dollar company in the making. Twitter's market cap is roughly half of Tesla today. But I have no clue what can happen to Twitter in the long run. If Elon decides to start a similar website tomorrow......
 
That's fine.

I look at their market cap and try to think what's the risk and upside potential. Tesla's market cap is 45B, and it's a trillion dollar company in the making. Twitter's market cap is roughly half of Tesla today. But I have no clue what can happen to Twitter in the long run. If Elon decides to start a similar website tomorrow......

Yea, Tesla going to $500 overnight in this imaginary scenario would be the only reason I’d sell it. That’d put it a year ahead of where I think it’ll be.
 
OMiGawd....would you please go back to your old black panther/black jaguar avatar?

That.....thhinnngggg...is just too scary. Aurora and Borealis are having nightmares.

I believe that’s off topic. Perhaps a new thread should be created for avatar discussions? Or VA could start a poll: yea or nay re: my avatar?

BTW, way to get in at the recent bottom. Hope you threw more than mouse nuts at it.
 
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