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Unanswered is whether those larger batteries cost more, or more relevantly, what the cost comparison is. I believe Tesla is ahead there, too. But there are options: a different battery chemistry or battery design could allow faster charging, higher speed driving (although I think we learned with Model 3 motor analysis that that is more based upon motor heating than battery heating), or some other tradeoff that doesn't result in more range. If they spaced their charger setups in such a way they could "fill" like a gas station, then that might, in their mind, solve the "range" issue. I'd hate to have to "fill" twice a day just to go to work, though, if the alternative is plugging in my EV every time I come home. But those are European, so perhaps their idea of "long range" is a lot smaller.

My paragraph begs the question: do their motors keep up with Autobahn speeds for hours at a time? I still want to know how well the Model 3 Performance does on the Autobahn for extended periods of time (not in heavy traffic); we know the Model S and X fall short, and the Model 3 should be theoretically better. I could do my own tests here in California if someone wants to loan me their Performance model.
Not arguing, just expanding on your points...

In theory what you are saying could be true. But I think we have sufficient circumstantial evidence, that it is not what`s happening here. I may be oversimplifying this, but to me battery cost comes down to 3 factors:
  1. cell chemistry cost
  2. cell manufacturing cost
  3. pack component & manufacturing cost
On No. 3 we will have to wait for tear-downs, but for now it does not appear as if anyone has come up with anything better than Tesla`s. If anything, the Munroe and Wirtschaftswoche tear-downs praised how integrated and compact and genius the Model 3 BMS is. The rest - cooling, casing and such - is just pipes and steel.

On cell chemistry we haven't heard of any significant breakthrough in production or being close to it. Again, if anything the biggest recent breakthrough came from Tesla integrating more and more silicon into the anode and reducing the cobalt content significantly.

This leaves cell manufacturing. Again, oversimplifying, but that bit comes down to volumes. Tesla/Pana is the biggest producer of li-ion cells globally. In order for someone to get lower costs while doing lower volumes, they would have to have significantly better manufacturing techniques. I have not seen any reporting on that.

So for now, it is very hard to imagine how Jag and Audi would have a lower pack level cost of their 90-95 packs than Tesla`s 75 does.

As for Autobahn overheating... I`ve only driven there maybe 2-3 times in my life and tried how fast my car could go :) but even with my 190-ish (km/h) top speed it was hard not to get into traffic within a few minutes. Not to mention fuel consumption at those levels. Could just be my smaill 1.6L engine, but my consumption went up more than 2x of 130 km/h (the normal speed limit in most of Europe). I think this is more of an actual problem for those who like to track their cars on the weekends, and an image problem in Germany with normal users. Not that you can`t get into a situation at 1am on a weekend when you *could* do 200 km/h for minutes and minutes, but seriously, that`s not the problem Tesla should focus on right now.
 
I know the probing by the Department of Justice will most likely not end up in a criminal investigation, but I'm curious.

Hypothetically: what would happen if Tesla and/or Elon are criminally charged and convicted? (I'm a civil attorney in Europe, so not very familiar with USA criminal law)

For an individual such as Elon himself I know the sentence could be light(=paying punitive damages) or major (=jail time, highly unlikely I know).

As for Tesla the company, I'm assuming only punitive damages is the possible outcome? Or does the US justice system allow for companies to be disbanded or anything?

Again, I want to emphasize I do not believe there will be any criminal investigation, but I just want to learn and be informed.
 
Apologies if this has been posted before.

I opened the YouTube app this morning and saw the Audi Etron ad promoted at the top. They seem to be going for Apple’s think different theme with a spin that the 1st company in the market isnt the best (I think it just makes viewers think of Tesla when they see the ad):


Happy to seem them investing in marketing ads now that will help the consumer to buy the best car in the market by their lined out specifications to look at, a Tesla.
 
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In practice, disbanding companies for criminal activity is extremely rare in the US. It is an option, but it's so rarely exercised even when the company's crimes are severe enough to have destabilized the entire US economy. (Then again, usually when that happens, the company's also been discovered to have been a pyramid scheme, and it collapses on its own.)
 
As for Autobahn overheating... I`ve only driven there maybe 2-3 times in my life and tried how fast my car could go :) but even with my 190-ish (km/h) top speed it was hard not to get into traffic within a few minutes. Not to mention fuel consumption at those levels. Could just be my smaill 1.6L engine, but my consumption went up more than 2x of 130 km/h (the normal speed limit in most of Europe). I think this is more of an actual problem for those who like to track their cars on the weekends, and an image problem in Germany with normal users. Not that you can`t get into a situation at 1am on a weekend when you *could* do 200 km/h for minutes and minutes, but seriously, that`s not the problem Tesla should focus on right now.

The penalty for going fast on the Autobahn is not so high for combustion engines, because they are relatively inefficient at low speeds. For instance, my Diesel car needs just very little more fuel at 120 than at 140 km/h (about 4.9 vs 5.0 l/100 km) even if the power needed at 140 km/h is a lot more than at 120 km/h. In comparison, when I look at the graphs in this article, the consumption of Tesla models S3X from 120 km/h to 140 km/h goes up by something like 40 %.

On the other hand, if I only have to go 30 km to work, I don't care about consumption at all. I'm looking forward to going more than 200 km/h on the autobahn regularly! With my Diesel car, I try to save fuel to pollute less, even if I don't care for the money spent on Diesel or electricity.
 
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Apologies if this has been posted before.

I opened the YouTube app this morning and saw the Audi Etron ad promoted at the top. They seem to be going for Apple’s think different theme with a spin that the 1st company in the market isnt the best (I think it just makes viewers think of Tesla when they see the ad):


Full backing of a nationwide dealer network.... ready to rip you off.
 
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Sure, there's lots of reasonable scenarios, but we'd just be speculating. I think the important thing is that DOJ must think it's plausible, otherwise they would not be asking for documents.

Tesla says it should all be "quickly resolved". It's been 3-7 weeks so far since the initial DOJ document request last month, so it has not been resolved that quickly...

A criminal action requires proof of intent which is a can of worms-- 4.2 Criminal Intent | Criminal Law and difficult to prove. Elon's fixation on shorts and warnings about "short burn of the century" probably were too much circumstantial indication of the motivation for his series of August 7 tweets for the DOJ to ignore by not at least opening an inquiry.

Nothing any government agency, federal, state, or local, does is "quick." The DOJ inquiry and likely the SEC investigation will both be resolved eventually, probably with immaterial impacts on TSLA--the more significant exposure is in the civil litigation. The latter is an expensive distraction that diverts top management attention from profitable execution.
 
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The gearhead ICE lovers are very threatened by EVs. They know the tech well enough to realize that EVs really are a superior technology, but they just can't let go of their passion. In a weird sort of way they're mourning the loss of the tech they had their identity wrapped up in.

I don't get it with cars because I'm more the get from point A to point B type, but I have felt it with some other technology. My father has a lifelong passion for steam trains. They started phasing out when he was a young adult in the 50s and he was very into model railroading then. There is a restored Southern Pacific Daylight passenger locomotive here in Portland, OR that sometimes rides the rails around the country.
I don't get it with steam trains, because I've always preferred electric trains. But I know other steam train fans, and I also figure ICE car fans have the same mentality.
 
A personal 'Thank You' to @jhm for his wonderfully articulated responses to Dana Hull on Twitter. These were spot-on, and the responses following in that thread continued to pound the rock. It is fascinating to see a growing surge of Tesla Bulls/investors more vocal about holding major publications legally responsible for the damage they are doing to Elon/Tesla. This is the 'good' of Twitter that is overlooked by most who only hear the same media sources crying about how the President misuses it. Of course one of the main reasons they are really crying about Twitter is that it can be a conduit for Truth and real-time information. And I bet Dana Hull is a bit nervous at this point regarding the growing swell of angry Tesla enthusiasts speaking out against her...........many of which were previously enthusiastic followers of her when she wrote more truthful stories for the Mercury News. Ihor's statistics at the end of that link stating that more financial damage was done by Dana's story than was done by Elon's tweet is information that Elon/Tesla should have in their back-pocket for SEC & DOJ. If Bloomberg got swept into the Elon Tweet mess it may all just get quietly swept under the rug instead......hmmm
 
I know the probing by the Department of Justice will most likely not end up in a criminal investigation, but I'm curious.

Hypothetically: what would happen if Tesla and/or Elon are criminally charged and convicted? (I'm a civil attorney in Europe, so not very familiar with USA criminal law)

For an individual such as Elon himself I know the sentence could be light(=paying punitive damages) or major (=jail time, highly unlikely I know).

As for Tesla the company, I'm assuming only punitive damages is the possible outcome? Or does the US justice system allow for companies to be disbanded or anything?

Again, I want to emphasize I do not believe there will be any criminal investigation, but I just want to learn and be informed.

Theranos/Holmes is instructive for corporate frauds. The Theranos deception
 
The penalty for going fast on the Autobahn is not so high for combustion engines, because they are relatively inefficient at low speeds. For instance, my Diesel car needs just very little more fuel at 120 than at 140 km/h (about 4.9 vs 5.0 l/100 km) even if the power needed at 140 km/h is a lot more than at 120 km/h. In comparison, when I look at the graphs in this article, the consumption of Tesla models S3X from 120 km/h to 140 km/h goes up by something like 40 %.

On the other hand, if I only have to go 30 km to work, I don't care about consumption at all. I'm looking forward to going more than 200 km/h on the autobahn regularly! With my Diesel car, I try to save fuel to pollute less, even if I don't care for the money spent on Diesel or electricity.

This thread looks at consumption at various driving speeds (mostly for Model 3):
Time Optimized Traveling Speed: the Final Graph

Based on numbers from evtripplanner.com, the power use of a RWD Model 3 (on a flat road, at sea level, 21C temp inside and outside, no wind, no payload) is
19.4 kW at 120 km/h and
28.5 kW at 140 km/h, i.e. an increase of 47%, so pretty much in accordance with the above article on
cleantechnica.com/.
 
my Diesel car needs just very little more fuel at 120 than at 140 km/h (about 4.9 vs 5.0 l/100 km) even if the power needed at 140 km/h is a lot more than at 120 km/h. In comparison, when I look at the graphs in this article, the consumption of Tesla models S3X from 120 km/h to 140 km/h goes up by something like 40 %.

Drag is square of speed and it is the same for ICE and EV (or any other body moving through the air). What kind of efficiency change happens in your car between those speeds? A gear change? :)
 
I've never been into cars until Tesla, but I've been reading more about cars and watching some YouTube channels that are entertaining. The vast majority of the population see cars as transportation from point A to point B. They want something reliable with at least a few creature comforts. Some people use their car as an extension of their ego, they want to be seen driving their car.

But there is a core group of true car enthusiasts are bonded to everything ICE. They obsess about the specifications of ICE motors, transmissions, performance, and even the exhaust note. Their identity is wrapped up in ICE. A lot of these people gravitated to the car business in one way or another because of their love of the machine. Those who worked for car makers put up with putting out boxes for the masses, but their passions were special vehicles: sports cars, tricked out trucks, etc.

EVs destroy all that sexiness to them. All the parts of the car they love are gone replaced with vastly simpler systems. To rub salt in the wound Tesla went and proved that EVs can be vastly better cars than any ICE. Compare the Model S P100D and the Dodge Demon. The Demon sacrifices everything, including driving in the rain, to be the best stock drag racer ever built. The P100D is just a tiny sliver slower than the Demon, but it also can be an everyday family car too with no compromises except a bit of range loss over the S 100D. As a practical car, the P100D is vastly superior to any car it is competitive with on the drag strip.

This ICE mentality is there with many of the higher performance EVs and PHEVs coming out. The Taycan has fake tail pipes and both the i8 and iPace have fake engine noises. The iPace's noises are more electric in nature, but it still makes fake noise at you. The i8 makes fake large ICE noises like some kid playing with his toy cars.

The gearhead ICE lovers are very threatened by EVs. They know the tech well enough to realize that EVs really are a superior technology, but they just can't let go of their passion. In a weird sort of way they're mourning the loss of the tech they had their identity wrapped up in.

I don't get it with cars because I'm more the get from point A to point B type, but I have felt it with some other technology. My father has a lifelong passion for steam trains. They started phasing out when he was a young adult in the 50s and he was very into model railroading then. There is a restored Southern Pacific Daylight passenger locomotive here in Portland, OR that sometimes rides the rails around the country.

One time when I was in college it was headed to New Orleans for a movie and was scheduled to pass through the Tehachapi Loop east of Bakersfield, CA. It's a famous place for trainspotters to get pictures. In one place long trains will cross over themselves on the winding climb over the pass. My father stationed family members along the track to get pictures from various spots. When the locomotive went by it was pulling the grade and the feeling of those steam cylinders slamming home was primal. I grokked why steam engine fans went so nuts about them. Diesel locomotives are like steam locomotives the same way EVs are to ICE cars. Diesels are superior tech, but steam engines are more varied sounds and feel different.

I also have always been into WW II aircraft and those high power engines can have that same primal feeling. I once was standing on the edge of a runway when several P-51s took off. I couldn't hear very well for a few days, but it was an intense feeling.

Those high performance piston engines are now only used in antique aircraft maintained for museums and air shows because they have been passed up by better tech that's simpler. But they do have character. Even the same engine in different planes can sound different due to differences in exhaust, but a 787 sounds pretty much the same as a 737.

Well, to put it simply, older generations were addicted to cigarettes while young generations are to weeds. EV is the weed: healthier, cheaper and whatnot.
 
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The penalty for going fast on the Autobahn is not so high for combustion engines, because they are relatively inefficient at low speeds. For instance, my Diesel car needs just very little more fuel at 120 than at 140 km/h (about 4.9 vs 5.0 l/100 km) even if the power needed at 140 km/h is a lot more than at 120 km/h. In comparison, when I look at the graphs in this article, the consumption of Tesla models S3X from 120 km/h to 140 km/h goes up by something like 40 %.

On the other hand, if I only have to go 30 km to work, I don't care about consumption at all. I'm looking forward to going more than 200 km/h on the autobahn regularly! With my Diesel car, I try to save fuel to pollute less, even if I don't care for the money spent on Diesel or electricity.
Just for the record I also have an ICE at the moment and was talking about fuel consumption between 130 km/h and 200 km/h. You can check out some scary numbers here (click through the images), or here, or here.

As for Model 3 range at different speeds, check out the chart our very own @Troy put together for a post at Model 3 owners club.

But don`t want to derail the thread. :)
 
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I know the probing by the Department of Justice will most likely not end up in a criminal investigation, but I'm curious.

Hypothetically: what would happen if Tesla and/or Elon are criminally charged and convicted? (I'm a civil attorney in Europe, so not very familiar with USA criminal law)

For an individual such as Elon himself I know the sentence could be light(=paying punitive damages) or major (=jail time, highly unlikely I know).

As for Tesla the company, I'm assuming only punitive damages is the possible outcome? Or does the US justice system allow for companies to be disbanded or anything?

Again, I want to emphasize I do not believe there will be any criminal investigation, but I just want to learn and be informed.
It's pretty unusual to see jail time, usually only in the most blatant cases where there is tons of easily understandable evidence of fraud or something. Jordan Belfort/Oakmont Stratton comes to mind. To be disbanded they would probably need to prove that the company was causing harm in some serious and repeated way to the public, like if a drug company was knowingly selling a pill that was killing people. But then again tobacco companies are still around and doing well, alcohol, guns, meat/dairy, fast food...

What's it like Europe? Is it pretty country specific? Any of those VW execs seeing jail time?
 
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Insult to Injury is the fact that Dana Hull hides behind a disingenuous photo of herself as an outdoor enthusiast with Half Dome/Yosemite in the background of her Twitter page - portraying the image that she is deeply rooted in environmental interests and sustainability. Her articles after leaving the Mercury News seem to be the complete opposite. Since leaving her previous 'news' job to take a position as a 'FUD journalist' that now targets that same environmental effort towards sustainability that she once wrote favorably about, perhaps she should photo-shop her face in front of Texas oil rigs and Coal exhaust for her Twitter page instead. After spending an entire career working to improve our environment and resources I find nothing more offensive than someone portraying similar interests while undermining the greatest movement towards a more sustainable future with their efforts

Dana Hull on Twitter
 
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