deonb
Active Member
Not that low. (Honestly, I think the poster is confusing taxes due with taxes owed - it's a very common mistake on here).
Sure he paid 16%, but that was still $1.8m.
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Not that low. (Honestly, I think the poster is confusing taxes due with taxes owed - it's a very common mistake on here).
Sure he paid 16%, but that was still $1.8m.
bkp_duke
Well-Known Member
Point is the system is broken as is. I made high 6 figures this year, and because of various state and federal loopholes and tax credits (thank you renewables, etc.) I will likely have a 2017 tax burden of less than 7%. Even I know that's not fair.
deonb
Active Member
Ditto. I noticed the bill isn't getting rid of Section 179 like they were originally planning - in fact Section 179 is getting itself a yearly COLA now. Score - what color do you want your Cirrus Jet in?
Didn't say it was fair.
Dr. J
Active Member
These breaks are for the "job creators": https://www.amazon.com/Deserving-Entitled-Social-Constructions-Public/dp/0791463427.
Every state including DCs average home price is under 500K except HI at $547K. All but 4(HI,DC,CA,MA) are below $300K and 4/5 of states average home price is below $200K. The average home price in SoCal is right around 500K. It seems congress knows exactly how much the average home costs nowadays.
insaneoctane
Well-Known Member
I would argue that it is MUCH higher. The cost impact is more than just the cost of the fuel. The health care impacts, long-term and environmental cleanup costs later just to name a few. Jesse and Zac did a good video on their "now you know" YouTube channel a few weeks ago to cover the impacts if you are interested....
voip-ninja
Give me some sugar baby
Where are both of those countries today? I'm pretty sure that for emissions they are both currently well behind USA/Europe.
USA was unable to pass/impose newer and much more restrictive CAFE standards and had to let them slide... we'll see what China is able to actually do vs. what they say they are going to do.
bkp_duke
Well-Known Member
LoL. No jet. Didn't make THAT much.
Do I think things are fair? Nope. But I do think this is a step in the right direction.
Perhaps if they are going to get rid of the EV tax credit, they could reduce/remove some of the oil subsidies? Those alone would cover a lot of this tax cut.
Sorry if this point has already been made, but those who are simply accepting the GOP tax plan as a done deal and are only considering how they personally will respond to the loss of the EV tax credit, might remember that, as citizens in a democracy, they have the right to participate in the democratic process. If you believe the EV credit is worth saving, you should consider contacting your representative and senators and expressing your opposition to ending this provision in the tax code. This step may be especially impactful if you live in a "red" district or state. While some may doubt it will do any good, surely the lessons of the ACA political battle of the past 9 months apply. The half million people who reserved a Model 3 might well influence the final shape of the current tax cut proposal. It is surely worth a try -- at least as worthy, and possibly more productive, than wringing of hands. Rather than wringing one's hands, try ringing your representative/senator.
The $3.80 came from this study. Others have had varying results depending on methodology. The American Lung Association put out this report a while back, which was limited to ZEV states and concluded about an additional $1.15 in public health costs. I've seen some as high as $15/gallon inclusive of the cost of the fuel.
insaneoctane
Well-Known Member
To be clear, this bill is absolutely good news for Tesla. They have a back order of about 500K M3's. Even if 25% of their buyers drop, they still have 375K buyers which translates to well over a year of back orders. The people who bail just drop out and those behind them drop in. At that point, once their CURRENTLY existing orders have been filled, they have been making continuous improvements to the production line and can afford to reduce the cost of the vehicle without affecting gross margins! So, now some of the people who dropped come back and Tesla appeals to an even broader market. Hell, maybe Tesla even starts to advertise their cars? Meanwhile, all of the "competition" needs the federal tax credit to sell almost every single car that they make. How many Leafs and Fiats do you think sell at full boat? They will seriously be hurt by this. Meanwhile Tesla enjoys the full benefit of their superior infrastructure and technology and continues to provide EVs to the world. The biggest losers here are American's who will see the EV adoption rate slowed here (not stopped) by this short sighted decision. Tesla though? Buy more TSLA.
deonb
Active Member
On CO/CO2 they're ahead. Even the Euro IV CO/CO2 emissions standards back in 2005 were lower than the US Tier 2 (even CARB) standard is today. On NOX they'll be higher, sure, until 2020.
China has already passed the 2020 standards (called China 6) into law and their manufacturers have already started to respond to the upcoming law which takes effect July 1, 2020.
Keep in mind that having a globally competitive vehicle industry is a silver bullet for China. This isn't seen as an burden to them.
Skotty
2014 S P85 | 2023 F-150L
It's a huge chunk of discretionary spending, which the chart should have been clear about. It looks smaller when you compare it in combination with healthcare and social security, a tactic the Right uses to cover up their excess spending on military. It will look even smaller as deficit and interest on the debt balloons further under Republican leadership that doesn't know how to properly cut spending before cutting taxes. This is an area that the Republicans are supposed to be good at, so I'm very hard on them for it.
voip-ninja
Give me some sugar baby
You are clearly more up on what they are doing than I am. A relatively short time ago I read an article that went into some depth on what emissions standards they were requiring, and it was pointing out that their emissions requirements were at least 10 years behind what Europe was already requiring.
China is in a great spot. They are more or less forcing companies that want to sell their vehicles there to share all manufacturing knowledge with China and in most cases those companies need to take on a Chinese partner to get things done.
Additionally, my understanding is that China collects the import tariff on US company cars even if they are built in China.
All in all I'm not worried about what China thinks is a strength for them. They have managed to get themselves into a very advantageous position to try to usurp US and European manufacturers and we have allowed it to happen.
Where does my money go when owning my Lexus vs Model 3? How many US jobs and additional taxes will this produce?
Lexus IS $40,000
Produced in Japan $36,000 (ABC Made in America say 0% American)
Sold in US $4,000
Powered by Gas ($7,500/5 years, 51% is foreign crude so $3,825, $3,675 is US refining, distribution & taxes)
Total US: $7,675
Total Foreign: $39,825
Model 3 $40,000
Produced in US $32,400 (InsideEVs says it is 95% American but I used 90% and taking out $4k for the sales side)
Produced outside US $3,600
Sold in US $4,000 (broke out to easily compare to ICE)
Powered by Electricity ($3,750/5 years, 100% US clean and dirty energy)
Total US: $40,150
Total Foreign: $3,600
Bottom line is that if a $7,500 tax credit gets someone to buy a Model 3 vs Lexus IS the US economy will see $40,150 vs $7,675. That $32,475 difference will go a long ways for producing jobs. If $32,475 in jobs are taxed at 25% the government would collect $8,119 just in income taxes.
Lexus IS $40,000
Produced in Japan $36,000 (ABC Made in America say 0% American)
Sold in US $4,000
Powered by Gas ($7,500/5 years, 51% is foreign crude so $3,825, $3,675 is US refining, distribution & taxes)
Total US: $7,675
Total Foreign: $39,825
Model 3 $40,000
Produced in US $32,400 (InsideEVs says it is 95% American but I used 90% and taking out $4k for the sales side)
Produced outside US $3,600
Sold in US $4,000 (broke out to easily compare to ICE)
Powered by Electricity ($3,750/5 years, 100% US clean and dirty energy)
Total US: $40,150
Total Foreign: $3,600
Bottom line is that if a $7,500 tax credit gets someone to buy a Model 3 vs Lexus IS the US economy will see $40,150 vs $7,675. That $32,475 difference will go a long ways for producing jobs. If $32,475 in jobs are taxed at 25% the government would collect $8,119 just in income taxes.
insaneoctane
Well-Known Member
I'm a facts and data kinda guy. While I'm as irritated as anyone about the proposed removal of the EV tax credit, has anyone actually compared their taxes both BEFORE and AFTER the proposed bill? I did and it was significant. As a matter of fact, it would be financially smarter for me to choose the proposed bill without EV credits vs leaving things the way they are currently (not necessarily due to 1 tax year of savings, but certainly over multiple). Additionally, the new tax bill would promote me to no longer itemize my return, so my taxes would also be much much simpler. So, I'd invite folks to plug their numbers in to the calculator and see the difference between current tax code and proposed and see what (if any) savings they might get. Maybe it takes a few tax years, but if you got the equivalent of the EV credit, you may have options. Since I'm only a single data point, please share any results/findings you discover.
Here's the calculator
PS- I still want the EV tax credit to be left intact! Maybe we could do the tax bill as is AND put the EV credit back in?
Here's the calculator
PS- I still want the EV tax credit to be left intact! Maybe we could do the tax bill as is AND put the EV credit back in?
deonb
Active Member
That is exactly right. They’re on Euro IV right now which is the 2005 standard for Europe.
That standard was/is still better than the current US standard when it comes to CO but not for NOx and PM. Europe is a bit diesel-happy so it follows from there.
It is more from these low CO & CO2 requirements / high mileage requirements that you see a real need for EV’s. NOx and PM you can get to in other ways.
insaneoctane
Well-Known Member
While I agree with your math, the biggest contributor is simply "buying American"...Do we need a subsidy for that?
