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Hard to believe that only Tesla has mass-produced an EV with a range > 100 miles.

Discussion in 'Electric Vehicles' started by MileHighMotoring, Sep 16, 2015.

  1. MileHighMotoring

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    Given the variety of EVs produced in the last decade from so many different and major manufacturers, it's hard to believe that only Tesla has made one that has a range of more than 100 miles. For my household, we almost never need that much range, but 1-2 times a week we do have occasion to go 60 miles each way to a specific destination. So it's Tesla, or an ICE.

    My biggest "shaking my head" moments come thinking about Toyota. They basically created the movement with their line of hybrids, the Prius being the biggest in terms of sales and familiarity obviously. They finally relented and came out with the plug-in hybrid version, which had a whopping 4.4 kWh battery pack, for an additional $6k. Honestly, what a joke. They could have easily won the small EV market just as they won the hybrid market. Shaking my head indeed.

    So it seems it's all up to Tesla again, with the Model 3, still years away. I just can't believe not a single manufacturer has put their muscle behind a small EV with decent range. I had a Leaf, and the question EVERYONE asked was how far you can go. And when you said "80-90 miles" they'd do that slow nod and think, "yeah, I guess I could maybe make that work..." If you said 150 miles, or 200 miles, everyone would shrug and know it was enough for a day's travels, without the compromise. The <100 mile range of every EV (save Tesla) scares off so. many. potential. customers.

    So I know my post won't magically create more options in the marketplace. But I also know that my ownership of a Leaf sold five Leafs. My experience and soft evangelizing made it seem okay and reasonable to buy one. But I know for a fact that ten times that number would buy if they had a 150 mile range, even if the cost was a bit more.
     
  2. dhanson865

    dhanson865 Active Member

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    Hard to believe since it isn't true.

    2016 Nissan LEAF: 107 Miles EPA Range - Full Specs/Pricing
    Compare EVs

    Change that headline to 125 miles and you'd still have a valid point.

    I did about 85 miles in a 2012 Leaf that was degraded to 83% of original range. I could have done more than 100 miles on my 2012 Leaf if I had it new and I'm sure I could do 120 miles on a 2016 Leaf with the 30 kWh battery if you gave me one.

    Even the Kia Soul EV with 93 miles EPA can be stretched out to 100 miles with careful driving.

    Still doesn't change the fact that Toyota avoided making a better EV.
     
  3. Takumi

    Takumi Member

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    I think MileHighMotoring means driving >100 miles without going slower (65 or higher mph) than everyone else on the highway. Where I am, 70mph is slow. Tesla does this job with aplomb. Winter range is the killer. I wouldn't go more than 50 miles RT on the LEAF when the temp is lower than 32°F outside.
     
  4. EVenthusiast

    EVenthusiast Member

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    When Toyota released the Prius plug-in, battery pricing was much higher. People were balking at the premium for a tiny 4 kWh battery upgrade, you think they would be willing to pay much more for a larger battery? It's 'only' a Prius after all. That said, even that tiny bit of battery makes a massive difference in the MPG rating, and still served many people well (including myself). Combine that with the fact that the Prius is so slow to begin with, the added weight would have killed the entire driving experience anyways.

    The next plug-in will have much better range while still offer acceptable driving characteristics.

    Now, I totally agree Toyota dropped the ball here (personally, I'm really pissed how they limited the RAV4 EV production, but you can thank CARB and lack of profit for that one), but remember, they have been investing in fuel cell tech for years now, and it's difficult to convince people to buy your new inferior product when the existing tech is much better and more affordable. Eventually, they'll have to give in and stop their public EV hating campaigns, it's just a matter of time now.

    Until Tesla launched the Model S, I don't think any of the big players believed/accepted battery-electric vehicles were here to stay, and it's a lot easier for a new company to push existing market boundaries, than a giant dinosaur.

    But 200 mile vehicles are coming, and I don't think the electric car can be 'killed' again, the momentum is just too large.

    The Model S is at least twice the price of the Nissan LEAF. It's just a financial issue at this point, at least newer tech like Bosch/Seeo goes into production.
     
  5. MileHighMotoring

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    You're undoubtedly correct - but the Roadster showed up in 2008, and the Model S in 2012. MY2016 - still no big players have an EV with a range more than 100 miles. There's talk, concepts, rumors, whispers, but nothing on the road. The Model 3 will possibly be here before any other company puts a comparable vehicle into the market. I'm cautiously optimistic about the Chevy Bolt EV - I hope that works out and meets the published timetables. Nissan is missing a huge opportunity not building off their Leaf successes and exposure.

    From your lips to gods ears, my friend. I truly hope so. I don't want to every buy an ICE again.
     
  6. Twiglett

    Twiglett Single pedal driver

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    everyone is hedging on the 200 mile car.
    Nissan and GM have them in the wings, but they can't commit to producing a whole bunch of them yet because battery manufacturing isn't there (yet).
    They aren't ready to produce enough cells to cover current market volumes when the pack size is doubled or tripled.
    If we take current battery/cell manufacturing capacity and double the pack size, they can only produce half the number of vehicles - or less if pack size is three times bigger.
    Catch 22 for them
     
  7. EVenthusiast

    EVenthusiast Member

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    #7 EVenthusiast, Sep 16, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2015
    For what it's worth, the MY2016 Nissan LEAF will have an epa range of 107 miles.
    That's assuming chemistry doesn't change, which we know it will.

    There are several next gen batteries in development, past the prototype phase, with Seeo already having executed limited production runs (there's a reason Bosch bought them).

    Change IS coming.
     
  8. Twiglett

    Twiglett Single pedal driver

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    For sure change is coming, but regardless of chemistry, make up or anything, the ability for produce double the number of battery cells doesn't exist.
    The last numbers I saw for GM's battery ability was that they had enough capacity to build roughly the same number of new Volts as the old model
    OR
    Half the number of Bolts
    But not both

    While change is bound to come it will not suddenly arrive in less than a year to change current manufacturing process

    That is my point - GM and Nissan do not currently have the capability to ship a 200 mile vehicle in the same numbers as their current models.
     
  9. cpa

    cpa Member

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    I am no defender of ICE manufacturers, but could it be a combination of one or more of the following:

    They are a mature industry with shareholder expectations of profitability and consistency. Stock in companies like these is owned by pension plans, insurance companies, mutual funds and other major players. Lots of (comparatively) minuscule shareholders rely on the dividends that these companies pay to supplement their incomes.

    Public ignorance of charging--whether overnight at home or at work or while shopping. These entrenched companies usually do not promote their products with an educational campaign. They consider educational materials a wasted expense that could be directed into something the marketing department and the engineering department can do to sell more vehicles. Even if there were public charging availability like Tesla's SC system, charging while on the road takes time away from reaching a destination that is beyond the battery's range. The current infrastructure just does not cut it for a 300-mile getaway for a long weekend.

    They might be waiting for better battery technology to allow a much longer range at an affordable price--say 350 miles. They may not want to dedicate resources "half-way" with a 200-mile range battery that might work for daily driving but not work for weekend trips or a family vacation. Many people only have one car, or their second car is a vehicle that is impractical for vacations.

    Loss of additional revenue from selling replacement parts and licensing these parts to after-market manufacturers. There are just fewer parts that need replacing on a BEV compared to an ICE.
     
  10. renim

    renim Member

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    The question GM and Nissan management asked themselves was, could they make a profit and ship a 200mile vehicle?
    Renault Nissan could ship a 60kWH EV if they wanted to, just upgrade the Renault SM3 ZE packs from 24kWh to 30 kWh, and slap 1 underneath like where it sits in the LEAF. Effectively its a way to change the Renault EV from being a cheap better place vehicle to being a significantly more expensive vehicle.

    simple

    but would it sell?
     
  11. Evbwcaer

    Evbwcaer Member

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    The Toyota Rav4 Ev seems to have a real world range of about 120 miles.
     
  12. gglockner

    gglockner Member

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    #12 gglockner, Sep 16, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2015
    Let's stop being picky about the exact numbers. The main theme is correct: the Tesla Model S has more than double the real-world range of the next best EV. Other car makers have made bold promises about future EVs but no other EV is currently shipping with a comparable range.

    The big question is: why is the Model S currently the only EV with such a long range?
     
  13. Evbwcaer

    Evbwcaer Member

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  14. Twiglett

    Twiglett Single pedal driver

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    exactly - they are in a catch 22 situation.
    Will a 200 mile EV sell in sufficient numbers?
    They don't want to commit to pre-ordering enough capacity only to be stuck with it if their sales projections don't pan out.

    That is the genius of the Tesla plan.
    Tesla have the flexibility to decide where the manufacturing capability goes to, either to cars or to grid storage.

    Its been said so many time before, Tesla isn't a car company, which is why they have the best chance of succeeding.
     
  15. techmaven

    techmaven Active Member

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    The story is simple. In order to build a long distance battery power car, Tesla was forced to use battery chemistries that are relatively volatile. They burn if they aren't managed properly. Plus, they had to do this relatively cheaply, so they used the existing 18650 cylindrical form factor since the battery companies already make lots of these for the consumer electronics industry. That means wiring up thousands of volatile cells, figuring out a battery pack that would stop thermal runaway events and keep them temperature controlled. This was a major pain in the *ss. The major automakers were promised battery chemistry revolutions that would make this pain in the *ss side show unnecessary. So much simpler from their perspective to use a safer chemistry with relatively few connections and stick them in like bricks into their existing platforms. Plus, in a scant 5-15 years, the some new battery technologies breakthroughs have to finally make it so they can just skip this painful step. Tesla forged ahead essentially alone.
     
  16. apacheguy

    apacheguy Sig 255, VIN 320

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    Two things: a) it's not currently available. Hopefully later this fall it will be. B) That's not going to be a reliable 100 miles. I say that from my experience of driving a 2013 Leaf on lease from Nissan.
     
  17. POM

    POM Member

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    There are many cars that are "mass produced" around the World that can exceed 100 miles on electricity alone. Let me give you a few examples:

    sahibinden.com - Satılık, Kiralık, 2.El, Emlak, Oto, Araba, Alışveriş, Hizmet, Kariyer, İş İlanları, Bilgisayar, Cep Telefonu, Tekne, Motosiklet, İş Makinesi fiyatları - ilan ve alışverişte ilk adres

    BD OTO e6

    I'm not sure where you're coming with the fact that Tesla is the only one coming with high ranges, as there are various Asian EV manufacturers that COULD exceed 100 miles given powerful enough batteries. In fact, when you get down to the efficiency side of the things, the Model S is up there with the Fisker Karma, because of its large chassis and heavy cylinder batteries. It is around 2200kgs, making it one of the most inefficient EVs...
     
  18. CHG-ON

    CHG-ON Still in love after all these miles

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    I have so much to say about this topic and how the big guys, especially the biggest (idiot of all), GM totally blew this. Maybe, when I do feel like getting cranky, I'll rant for a while. You are spared of that tonight (yay!). But suffice it to say that their inability to take this market and run with it is due to two primary factors, IMHO (well, not so H):

    1: Laziness. They like where they are and don't want to leave it. Short sighted thinking that always gets them in the end.
    2: Oil. Let's not fool ourselves. It started back in the 20-30's, when GM, Standard Oil and Firestone got together and decided to kill all other forms of transport in favor of the auto in LA. It has not ended and it will not end until we either run out of oil or all those old white guys (and I am very white), AND their minions all die off.

    It's all based on fear and greed.

    Not that I have strong feelings on this topic.
     
  19. jerry33

    jerry33 S85 - VIN:P05130 - 3/2/13

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    Basically because no existing ICE manufacturer wants to invest the money when they already have a profitable line of cars. EVs will not increase their profits, only their costs. This is identical to when radial tires came out. The North American manufacturers didn't want to invest the money to produce radial tires. When radial tires took over so much of the market that they were forced to make them it was too late. Only one North American tire manufacturer survives from that time.
     
  20. WarpedOne

    WarpedOne Supreme Premier

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    It is.
    OP did not say ">100 miles EPA range", but "100 miles of range" without any qualifiers of when, where or how.
    So it means dependable and reliable range of more than 100 miles in every day situation. Winter, rain, sun, some hills.
    To get there one needs at least 20% buffer over EPA number. So 2016 leaf still does not cut it, it does not have every day range of more than 100 miles.
    When he gets to 150 EPA range, one can talk how it has more than 100 miles of range.

    Model S is 270 EPA, but in every day it is about 200.
     

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