Help Fight the FUD

[UkNorthampton]

Tired of tyres... copied from Tire particle problem


People who want freedom, independence for themselves, their locality, country should want solar, wind, storage & EVs.

People who want less pollution should also prefer EVs, especially in urban environments.

It seems that the report from "Emissions Analytics" may be at the root of the... "information" - at least for some reports I've seen.

EMISSIONS ANALYTICS LIMITED people - Find and update company information - GOV.UK​

EMISSIONS ANALYTICS LIMITED - Free company information from Companies House including registered office address, filing history, accounts, annual return, officers, charges, business activity

find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk

One director has some interesting previous & current positions - Eric Alliott VERDON-ROE personal appointments - Find and update company information - GOV.UK
Exhibitions, events, publishing, cars (including CHELSEA AUTOLEGENDS LTD), retail sale of newspapers


Seems EV tyre wear is less than ICE.

Do Electric Car Tyres Wear Slower than Normal Car Tyres? (they fix cars in UK, very big - at least one in every town).

Tyre wear on electric vehicles

For a start, electric cars are much heavier than regular combustion engine vehicles due to the extra technology under the bonnet. Because of their increased weight, you would think that electric car tyres wear down quicker. But you’d be wrong.

If electric cars were fitted with the same tyres as ordinary vehicles, the rates of wear would be greater — but they aren’t. Electric car tyres are built to withstand the pressure of the increased battery weight and electric car. Manufacturers improved not only the rubber compound and sidewall strength but also the tread and groove design for resilience.

As a result, they are more expensive than regular tyres but due to their strain-absorbing structure, they will wear down less quickly. In fact, according to recent studies, conventional tyres actually wear down 30% quicker than their electric vehicle counterparts.
Click to expand...

More

Do EVs produce more pollution? | RAC Drive​

It's been claimed that EVs produce more pollution from brakes and tyres than those on the petrol and diesel cars they are replacing. Read our guide.

www.rac.co.uk

or as PDF - https://resources.mynewsdesk.com/image/upload/fl_attachment/b0lywxjv5j6a399mnboy

As the tread on tyres wears down, tiny nanoparticles of rubber are cast off onto the road and into the atmosphere near ground height.

A press release by Emissions Analytics suggested that particulate matter pollution from car tyre wear can be 1,000 times higher than car exhaust emissions, and that car tyres may produce as much as 9.28 grams of particulate matter per mile, or 5.8 grams per kilometre. This is, however, a worst-case scenario – a crucial point that is not mentioned in the press release and which has consequently led to the ‘1,000 times higher than car exhaust emissions’ finding being widely reported in the media. Some common-sense calculations show how extreme this case is.

A typical 16” family car tyre weighs around 9 kg, so four of them on a vehicle gives a total weight of 36 kg. That’s not just the tread, but the full tyres. If a car did shed 9.28 grams of particulate matter per mile from the tyres, then the car tyres would physically disappear – and the car would be running on its alloys – in less than 4,000 miles.

In reality, the tread of a tyre is about 35% of the tyre’s total weight, so the tyres would be bald in less than 1,358 miles, or two months’ worth of driving for the average UK driver.

So, we now know that tyre wear is nowhere near as big a contributor to particulate matter emissions as some media coverage has suggested in the past. However, if electric vehicles are heavier than petrol or diesel cars, do they wear out their tyres faster? Firstly, modern electric vehicles aren’t actually that much heavier than many modern petrol or diesel cars, especially with the recent trend towards bigger and heavier SUVs.
Click to expand...

15,000 electric miles without new tyres

As for the EVs on the road today, their tyre wear is nowhere near as accelerated as some naysayers suggest. James Rooney, fleet engineer at British Gas, an operator of 800 electric vans (soon to be thousands) of electric vehicles, notes that their latest electric vans – which are large, heavy vehicles with traditionally tyre-chewing front wheel drive – have done 15,000 miles and not needed tyres or brakes replaced yet (with the exception of punctures, of course).

Ryan Todd has noticed something interesting about tyre wear on his taxis. When his Nissan LEAF electric taxis are delivered to him brand new, they are typically fitted with a high quality make of tyre like Michelin. The tyres usually last between 30,000 and 36,000 miles on the rear wheels, with the fronts lasting 20,000 miles.

While it is typical for front tyres to have shorter lifespans than rear tyres, Ryan notes that his diesel taxis do tend to get an extra 5,000 to 10,000 miles of lifespan out of their front tyres. This is because the LEAF is not only front wheel drive – so the front tyres are doing the steering as well as propulsion – but has a lot more torque from its motor than a diesel car, resulting in increased wear over time. If cheaper replacement tyres are fitted to his diesel or electric taxis, their lifespan of all four tyres is typically reduced by about 5,000 miles versus the original high-quality tyres – an important lesson for any vehicle driver.

Ryan notes, however, that the 30,000 to 36,000-mile lifespan of the rear tyres on his LEAF taxis is about the same as the rear tyres on his diesel taxis, since they aren’t propelling or steering the vehicle.

If driven more leisurely, as per most cars, the lifespan of the front tyres on his electric taxis would likely increase. Given that the taxi and van fleets mentioned above are examples of fleets that are likely driven a little more harshly than the average car, the fact that they have such vastly reduced brake wear, and similar tyre wear on the rear wheels in particular, bodes very well for controlling particulate matter pollution.

Remapping the throttle of EVs to reduce the aggressiveness of the power delivery, or driving them in eco mode, will also help to extend tyre lifespan on more harshly driven vehicles. Plus, as Dundee has already shown, air quality is demonstrably better in cities that have high uptake of electric vehicles, due to a substantial net reduction in particulate matter from exhausts, tyres and brakes.

Furthermore, Cleevely EV Mobile’s high-mileage cross-country electric vans, show that the tyre lifespan of front-wheel drive EVs can be just as good as petrol or diesel cars. James notes that his MG5 EV, which is only four months old, is approaching 20,000 miles on the clock, and all tyres have plenty of tread left on them. A veteran mechanic with an accurate judgement of component wear and remaining lifespan, James reckons he’ll get 30,000 – 35,000 miles out of all four tyres.

Additionally, many tyre manufacturers are developing special tyres for electric vehicles, which provide greater efficiency and less wear without sacrificing grip. This includes both big name tyre brands and new companies, like Enso, that have been set up specifically to tackle pollution from tyres.
Click to expand...

Conclusion

So, in conclusion, electric vehicles already vastly reduce particulate matter from brake wear, and claims of tyre wear contributing 1,000 times the particulate matter pollution of petrol and diesel exhausts are greatly overexaggerated. Real EV fleets are already seeing brake lifespans increased fourfold versus the diesel vehicles they have replaced, and tyre wear that is broadly on par with petrol and diesel cars (unless, as like with any vehicle, the drivers get a bit throttle happy!).

One final thought on emissions to end with: the UK is set to close its last remaining coal-fired power plants, but even if EVs were 100% powered by coal, it is much easier to fit particulate filters to a small number of very large, static power plants located away from city centres, than it is to fit effective filters to millions of small, mobile petrol and diesel engines running in urban areas.

The end result is that cities that have embraced EVs have already demonstrably benefitted from reduced pollution and improved air quality, and this trend shall only continue as more EVs switch to drum brakes, new tyres are developed that reduce nanoparticulate pollution even further, and the UK’s grid becomes ever increasingly powered by clean renewable energy.
Click to expand...

Auke is one of the world's experts on EVs & the FUD surrounding them

leads to a post from 2019.

"Tyres in a modern electric vehicle wear out much more slowly than in a vehicle with a traditional ICE. This is due to good traction control. Driving assist systems reduce slippage thanks to the electric motor's rapid power adjustment" - Mikko Liukkula, Nokian Tyres Dev Manager

On tyre particulate FUD -

https://twitter.com/x/status/1533428460701503490

https://twitter.com/x/status/1302261141389926400

 

[heltok]

Gordon Gish Gallop Johnson.

But to be fair, I think the arguments against him could have been better and less drama. But it's really hard to argue against someone who doesn't fight fair.

 

[afadeev]

Seems EV tyre wear is less than ICE.

Well, that's a steaming pile of crap, as anyone who has owned EVs and ICE vehicles will readily attest.

Mods - time to rename this thread to "Help SPREAD the FUD" ?

 

[UkNorthampton]

Well, that's a steaming pile of crap, as anyone who has owned EVs and ICE vehicles will readily attest.

Mods - time to rename this thread to "Help SPREAD the FUD" ?

Front wheel drive? Kwik-fit are a UK company. Front wheel drive cars are very common in Europe. ICE traction control generally worse than EVs. Steering & drive through tyres wears more than steering alone. We also have a lot of fast* roundabouts meaning that one side can wear much faster than the other, front nearside most of all. Good EVs have advantages with traction control. Tyre fitters could spot that I drove around Milton Keynes a lot due to tyre wear on one side. Many of the links discussed using different compounds for EV tyres.

I have less tyre wear on my Long Range Tesla Model 3 than I used to on my front-wheel drive noddy-mobile (low powered ICE). I suspect front wheel drive EVs worse for tyre wear than all-wheel drive. For Tesla. Long-Range should be better than Performance as Performance tyres may be softer compound. Teslas probably better than many other EVs, having better traction control.

*fast - quite usual for people to go 50+ miles per hour around 3-lane roundabouts, I've certainly been faster in my youth, faster still on motorbikes.

Learn about tyre age: Things to know about your tyres | The AA

Will the age of your tyres affect car performance? Find out how you can tell your tyre age and learn when you should replace your tyres with our in-depth guide.

www.theaa.com

How long do tyres last?

How long a tyre lasts depends on how its driven and stored. Under normal driving conditions, you should get a minimum of 20,000 miles out of front tyres on a front-wheel-drive car.

For rear tyres, it can be double that - around 40,000 miles. We recommend moving worn rear tyres to the front when the front ones wear out.

Troublesome Roundabout Tyre Wear in Milton Keynes Mobile Tyre Fitting

Mobile tyre fitting, new car tyres, van tyres, performance tyres, 4x4 tyres, caravan tyres and motorhome tyres. Low prices - all makes and sizes available. Order tyres online for at home fitting. home tyre fitting, tyres at work, tyres on the drive,

www.hometyre.co.uk

Roundabouts, a staple of our modern society… also, something that's utterly unavoidable in Milton Keynes! Currently holding the title for the most roundabouts in a city in the United Kingdom, Milton Keynes has a grand total of 130 roundabouts, a number we're sure will continue to grow!

One of the regular problems these 130 roundabouts cause, is uneven tyre wear. If you live in the Milton Keynes area, it's not uncommon to have the outside edge of the nearside tyre wear quicker than any other part of your tyres, this is due to the abuse the tyre suffers when a roundabout is taken at speed!

As the centre of mass shifts to the near side (the passenger side) more weight is put onto the tyres. This increases the pressure and causes more drag. On the upside, the other side has less weight pressing down and wears down slightly less!

 

[israndy]

More FUD fighting, from #StopBurningStuff:

All this FUD is from Newspapers in desperate need of clicks

 

[fhteagle]

More FUD fighting, from #StopBurningStuff:

Beat me to it by just a few minutes lol

 

[UkNorthampton]

More FUD fighting, from #StopBurningStuff:

All this FUD is from Newspapers in desperate need of clicks

So, many anecdotes on tyre wear plus two large vehicle leasing companies (in the audience) saying ICE and EV wear similar across 120,000+ vehicles.

Also one fire, in an ICE, even though they made up a smaller percentage than the company's EVs.

 

[Tiger]

So, many anecdotes on tyre wear plus two large vehicle leasing companies (in the audience) saying ICE and EV wear similar across 120,000+ vehicles.

Also one fire, in an ICE, even though they made up a smaller percentage than the company's EVs.

If tire wear as really an issue, it could probaby be easily resolved by legislating some organic, ecological, and sustainable compound. Hell, we can shoot people to the moon, we can surely make safe rubber. /s

 

[Electroman]

My Tesla tires barely last 20 o 25K miles, mostly 20k miles. All my similar ICE cars last much longer..

So I am not buying this and looks like reverse FUD on ICE cars to me.

 

[afadeev]

If tire wear as really an issue, it could probaby be easily resolved by legislating

Riiiiiight.
So we aspire to solve physics problems through "legislating", do we?
Keeeewl.

some organic, ecological, and sustainable compound.

Time to re-learn your rubber history.
Some rubber does come from trees. It's just not as good as good as synthetic rubber. Which comes from the same source as "vegan" leather (aka plastic). That source is oil.

Learn more below:

Hell, we can shoot people to the moon, we can surely make safe rubber. /s

Rubber is perfectly safe.
The issues at stake is that heavier and torquier EVs burn through it faster than ICE cars.
It's all cost of owning an EV.
Despite what some resident FUD-sters are trying to obfuscate.

HTH,
a

P.S.: If you have something against oil, feel free to start boycotting Tesla for favoring oil-based seats instead of relying on higher quality and sustainable leather.

 

[UkNorthampton]

My Tesla tires barely last 20 o 25K miles, mostly 20k miles. All my similar ICE cars last much longer..

So I am not buying this and looks like reverse FUD on ICE cars to me.

Your Mileage May Vary seems apt....

Which car/model - Performance? I'm wondering if they have softer compounds and whether having less give/different sidewalls than higher-profile tyres makes a difference. I'm on 18" Pilot 4S.

I've just looked up a few sites for UK tyre wear and 20,000 for front & 40,000 for rears have been mentioned for UK quite a lot. Some BMWs have much higher rear wear.

I've got less wear on my M3 Long range than I would have for a small front-wheel drive car. Just had it MOT'd (yearly government check) & also asked a Tesla tech who I was talking to. We were talking about what goes wrong with Teslas (not much, he said) and tyre wear (about the same). I drive "vigorously" & wondered how my tyres were holding up. He said something like "barely any wear" for 15,000 miles.

We have annual vehicle checks (MOT) - 1.6mm is minimum but most places I've dealt with will tell you if it's a bit low (guess of around 3mm) or uneven. It's called out as an advisory and they often seem to want to mention something, anything.

1.6mm is 0.0629921 inches (my calc is 2.01574803 / 32 inches) - a site said the USA used 1/32 of an inch for tyre depths.
3mm is 0.11811 inches (my calc is 3.77952756 / 32 inches)

BMW posts on tyre life of 9-10k miles for various models - Tyre wear M440i

Bridgestone Turanzas on my car, and at 10k miles the rears are done.

Its not driven particularly hard, and I’m used to getting more from a set of rears on previous BMWs I’ve had, one of which was a 535d which was pretty powerful.

The same issue is discussed on another forum for 1 and 2 series.

My previous M135i had Bridgestone Potenza that wore in the middle really quickly. They were borderline on the legal limit after around 9-10k miles despite me keeping the pressures in check and not driving like a loon.
I don't recall anybody getting anywhere with any claims against BMW on this.

I was "fortunate" that when I traded in this didn't detract from the price i had been quoted unseen.

What kind of tyre wear? Tyre pressures? Teslas do have high pressures.


The BMW posters include an image from Continental:-

More observations on BMWs - Front tyre wear

Non-English-language/cultural note - "eek out" means "make it last" and self-effacing comment about being a Yorkshiremen* means that they are suggesting they don't like spending money. Even so, they're only getting 20,000 miles or so with more effort than most.
*Hence Four Yorkshiremen Monty Python sketch.

Archetypal Yorkshireman here and normally I would rotate the tyres front to back every 6 months and eek out more than 20K miles from a set of tyres on a FWD car. Unfortunately the staggered setup on the F30 M-Sport precludes this.

Other conversations on alloy wheels being porous, or other things going off into the weeds.


To counter my info, there are also posts/articles on different websites saying EV tyres wear out faster

EV tyres wear out faster than ICE tyres, fleet data finds

Tyres fitted to electric vehicles are wearing out faster despite costing more, new fleet data from Epyx suggests. It’s found that EV tyres are lasting,

evfleetworld.co.uk

It’s found that EV tyres are lasting, on average, 6,350 fewer miles than those fitted to petrol or diesel cars and 6,656 than for hybrids.

The first tyre change for electric cars is taking place at an average of 17,985 miles and 551 days old, compared to 24,641 miles and 585 days for hybrids, and 24,335 and 670 days for petrol and diesel cars.

The data is taken from Epyx’s 1link Service Network platform, used by car and van fleets totalling more than four million vehicles to manage and process SMR.

The wider question, he added, was whether this was an inherent characteristic of EVs or just a reflection of the types of EVs being operated by fleets.

“There are conflicting arguments being made in the fleet sector at the moment, with some believing that the weight of EVs and the tyres being specified for them will inevitably mean faster wear, while others are saying that the picture is similar to petrol and diesel cars.”

He also warned that analysis here has to take in wider factors. Specialist EV tyres often have characteristics such as different compounds, reduced tread depth and reinforced sidewalls, all of which could ultimately impact on the speed of wear and propensity for damage, before pricing is considered.

Tyre wear rate of electric company cars ‘changes’ SMR spend

ATS Euromaster is warning that fleets making the switch to EVs need to prepare for a shift in the balance of service, maintenance and repair (SMR) spend.

www.fleetnews.co.uk

Mark Holland, operations director at ATS Euromaster, said: “The greatest influence on the wear rate of tyres is the driver.

“With EVs there does seem to be a tendency for drivers new to electric vehicles to make continued use of the exceptional acceleration offered – at least during the initial phase of the driver’s lifecycle with the vehicle.

“The data is very young at the moment and there’s certainly not enough to draw significant conclusions about tyre wear, but driver behaviour appears to be a significant factor.”

In a recent survey conducted by Michelin, nearly 60% of drivers said they enjoyed the accelerative power of EVs and used it at every opportunity where it was safe to do so or did so during the early phase of vehicle ownership before resorting to more moderate levels of acceleration.

Holland continued: “This strongly suggests to us that fleets should prepare for accelerated tyre replacement on EVs, certainly in the first phase of driver use. It seems the novelty of the EV driving experience is having an unexpected effect on tyre wear rates.

 

[TSLA Pilot]

Riiiiiight.
So we aspire to solve physics problems through "legislating", do we?
Keeeewl.



Time to re-learn your rubber history.
Some rubber does come from trees. It's just not as good as good as synthetic rubber. Which comes from the same source as "vegan" leather (aka plastic). That source is oil.

Learn more below:

Rubber is perfectly safe.
The issues at stake is that heavier and torquier EVs burn through it faster than ICE cars.
It's all cost of owning an EV.
Despite what some resident FUD-sters are trying to obfuscate.

HTH,
a

P.S.: If you have something against oil, feel free to start boycotting Tesla for favoring oil-based seats instead of relying on higher quality and sustainable leather.

Ah, no.

As in, "Not even close."

Here are some facts, hopefully strong enough to change your worldview but with some it's a case of "Don't bother me with the facts; my mind is made up" so we can only hope:

Animal agriculture is responsible for 18 percent of greenhouse gas emissions, more than the combined exhaust from all transportation. ​

"Livestock's Long Shadow: environmental issues and options". Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations. Rome 2006

Source:

COWSPIRACY: The Sustainability Secret

www.cowspiracy.com

 

[afadeev]

Ah, no.
Animal agriculture is responsible for 18 percent of greenhouse gas emissions, more than the combined exhaust from all transportation.

Please take your anti-agriculture extremism somewhere else. You want to trigger famine to satisfy your sick agenda - that's on you.
Leather is readily available and has been successfully used by humanity for millennia. It is renewable. Which oil isn't.
Substituting a renewable resource for inferior oil-based alternative is idiotic. If you care about product quality and sustainability, that is.

a

 

[Tiger]

Animal agriculture is responsible for 18 percent of greenhouse gas emissions, more than the combined exhaust from all transportation.

By definition, if cows fart what the grass has captured it does not net contribute to greenhouse gases.

 

[TSLA Pilot]

Please take your anti-agriculture extremism somewhere else. You want to trigger famine to satisfy your sick agenda - that's on you.
Leather is readily available and has been successfully used by humanity for millennia. It is renewable. Which oil isn't.
Substituting a renewable resource for inferior oil-based alternative is idiotic. If you care about product quality and sustainability, that is.

a

Wow, let's talk about massive ignorance.

Growing billions of tons of plants to feed to animals, to then murder the animals for their flesh, is a grossly inefficient way to feed humans. Far better for the humans to just eat what they were designed to eat: plants.

But don't take my word for it:

Cutting Back On Meat Consumption Could Help End Hunger By 2030: Experts

"Diets will have to change."

www.huffpost.com

And:

Eating meat has ‘dire’ consequences for the planet, says report

To feed a growing global population and curtail climate change, scientists say we need to radically change our food systems.

www.nationalgeographic.com

Tesla became a 100% vegan car company when the facts were exposed at a shareholders meeting some five or six years ago. The next step will have them become 100% vegan across the board--because while you can certainly have opinions, you don't get to have your own facts . . . .

In this case, the facts of animal agriculture are damning.

 

[Tiger]

Wow, let's talk about massive ignorance.

Growing billions of tons of plants to feed to animals, to then murder the animals for their flesh, is a grossly inefficient way to feed humans. Far better for the humans to just eat what they were designed to eat: plants.

But don't take my word for it:

Cutting Back On Meat Consumption Could Help End Hunger By 2030: Experts

"Diets will have to change."

www.huffpost.com

And:

Eating meat has ‘dire’ consequences for the planet, says report

To feed a growing global population and curtail climate change, scientists say we need to radically change our food systems.

www.nationalgeographic.com

Tesla became a 100% vegan car company when the facts were exposed at a shareholders meeting some five or six years ago. The next step will have them become 100% vegan across the board--because while you can certainly have opinions, you don't get to have your own facts . . . .

In this case, the facts of animal agriculture are damning.

Nonsense. Hunger does not exist because of cows. Hunger exists because of crony capitalism.

 

[afadeev]

Far better for the humans to just eat what they were designed to eat: plants.

Do you have a user's manual to prove the above, or did you just make it up?

Tesla became a 100% vegan car company when the facts were exposed at a shareholders meeting some five or six years ago.

Have any facts to back up the above claim?
Or something else you just made up?

The next step will have them become 100% vegan across the board--because while you can certainly have opinions, you don't get to have your own facts . . . .

Great, your priority is anti-agriculture extremism and making up your own facts to justify your opinion.
Zero care for prolonging and extending dependency on oil, whatsoever.
Awesome.

The rest of us have ZERO interest in your agenda.
Please take this anti-ag propaganda to another thread/forum/commune.

Hunger exists because of crony capitalism.

Oh, and please take this comrade with you.

Thanks in advance,
a

P.S.: All this nonsense made me hungry. Time for a snack:

 

[Dikkie Dik]

Great, your priority is anti-agriculture extremism and making up your own facts to justify your opinion.

Animal agriculture, or the breeding, exploitation, killing and slaughtering of 80 billion sentient beings per year is in no way sustainable or ‘renewable’, nor is it morally justifiable.

Suggesting a plant based diet which is far healthier, doesn’t necessitate the above and could contribute to adverting climate change has nothing to do with ‘extremism’, in fact it is carnism that is extreme.

The next disruption will be animal agriculture, don’t take my word for it, here’s Tony Seba’s:

https://tonyseba.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/RethinkXFoodandAgricultureReport.pdf

On animal agriculture and the climate impact:

It may be uncomfortable, but we need to talk about it: the animal agriculture industry and zero waste

The animal agriculture industry is the leading cau

www.colorado.edu

 

[Tiger]

Animal agriculture, or the breeding, exploitation, killing and slaughtering of 80 billion sentient beings per year is in no way sustainable or ‘renewable’, nor is it morally justifiable.

Some people forget they are just offering opinnions, not facts. We are all just NPCs that dish out whatever was on our boot track. So are the cows too.

Marketing (profit motive) will determine what we eat in the future, not morals. Morals can be manufactured by hacking the boot track.

 

[AudubonB]

Take every last comment you have to make about eating choices somewhere else. That vegan, etc., discussion derailed this thread about as quickly and fully as any I can remember.

Wherever such discussion belongs, it is not here.