Higher efficiency, but still decent tires?

[clostridium]

I’d hoped you had actual data. The reports from tire rack are interesting but not directly comparable for a variety of reasons. If you look at the similar efficiency numbers for the Pilot Sport 4s they aren’t far off the other tires despite evidence to the contrary.

It’s interesting that Michelin didn’t choose to brand the CrossClimate with the Green X for low rolling resistance and efficiency but did so for the MXM4.

If you go to the MXM4 on tire rack and click on the link for the test data you'll see MPG on the test car, then you can go to the other two tires I linked and do the same. It's not apples to apples perfect but it's enough to show relative positions as to best vs worst.

The link you are looking for says Read the Full Test Report this one used a 2017 BMW F36 430i Gran Coupe

The MXM4 was tested on a 2011 BMW E92 328i Coupe

so you know the tests were on different cars and likely different days. The 2017 BMW gets better MPGs than the 2011 BMW so some math would have to be done to compensate.

TL;DR, no I can't give you an accurate comparison in range between the MXM4 and the Crossclimate+. It is likely a very small difference and if you drive mostly highway speeds you wouldn't even notice the difference.

 

[afadeev]

I’d hoped you had actual data. The reports from tire rack are interesting but not directly comparable for a variety of reasons.

TireRack is about as independent and data-driven 3rd party evaluator as you can get.
Between their in-house testing, and customer feedback and ratings, you will get absolutely the best source of information on tires.
Consumer Reports comes is a distant second, as they test very few tires, and very rarely, and don't solicit customer feedback on the tire products.

If you look at the similar efficiency numbers for the Pilot Sport 4s they aren’t far off the other tires despite evidence to the contrary.

What are you referring to "efficiency numbers" for 4S's?
To what "other tires" do you compare 4S's?

There are three (3) types of Michelin Pilot 4S's in existence that fit 20" TM3 wheels:

1. Standard 4S's
2. Porsche OEM 4S's
3. Tesla OEM 4S's with Acoustic Tech

All three are functionally the same, have the same speed and load ratings. Tesla-spec tires have Acoustic Tech layer of sound-absorbing foam on the inner liner of the tire to reduce cabin noise in the vehicle. That makes them heavier, and more expensive to replace. That's about it.

All three are in Max Performance Summer category, and are a world ahead in traction, handling, and performance relative to all-season rubbers.

More info here:
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/TireSearchResults.jsp?tireIndex=0&autoMake=Tesla&autoYear=2019&autoModel=Model+3+Performance&autoModClar=&width=235/&ratio=35&diameter=20&sortCode=59853&skipOver=true&minSpeedRating=V&minLoadRating=XL

You could try the PS4 (not 4S) that are Tesla spec for 18s. I assume this is what comes with the Performance without red calipers.

https://m.tirerack.com/tires/tires....del+3+Performance&autoModClar=Standard+Brakes

You probably mean AWD, as Performance does come with 20" wheels (and 4S tires) and larger red calipers, among other improvements.

AWD comes with either 18" wheels and MXM4 all-season tires, or 19" wheels and Continental ProContact RX all-season tires.

It’s interesting that Michelin didn’t choose to brand the CrossClimate with the Green X for low rolling resistance and efficiency but did so for the MXM4.

MXM4 is an all-season compromise tire from Michelin. In a different size, they sell it with Honda minivans and other commuter vehicles. MXM4 embodies the definition of a compromise (or compromised?) tire, that tries to do a lot of things semi-OK, including adding slipperiness for extra economy, but accomplishes none of them very well.

4S's is a Max Performance summer tire that is optimized for grip, handling, and performance. Very few street tires do it better.

To degrade 4S's performance by introducing low rolling resistance rubber compounds to it would have been a sacrilege, and would defeat the purpose of optimizing tires for grip and performance in the first place!

a

 

[Snow Drift]

You probably mean AWD, as Performance does come with 20" wheels (and 4S tires) and larger red calipers, among other improvements.

AWD comes with either 18" wheels and MXM4 all-season tires, or 19" wheels and Continental ProContact RX all-season tires.

No, I mean the Performance with 18” wheels and normal calipers. In 2018 this set up was offered without the 20s, bigger calipers, etc. The Performance Pack was extra cost. We called it Stealth or P3D- (minus). These tires are sized perfectly for it.

The AWD, the car I own, comes with MXM4.

 

[dhanson865]

I’d hoped you had actual data. The reports from tire rack are interesting but not directly comparable for a variety of reasons. If you look at the similar efficiency numbers for the Pilot Sport 4s they aren’t far off the other tires despite evidence to the contrary.

It’s interesting that Michelin didn’t choose to brand the CrossClimate with the Green X for low rolling resistance and efficiency but did so for the MXM4.

Green X mark is per size of tire, some sizes get it and some don't. Also Michelin uses the term "Michelin Total Performance" to replace Green X on newer tires. In the case of the CrossClimate+ only the sizes below 225/45/18 get the mark. So for cars that can use the 15", 16" or 17" versions of it definitely get that mark. For whatever reason the size that fits the Model 3 doesn't get the mark.

 

[Daniel in SD]

No, I mean the Performance with 18” wheels and normal calipers. These are probably the tires that came with it. The AWD, the car I own, comes with MXM4.

All 18" wheels have come with MXM4s so far. Those Tesla spec 18" PS4 tires are a mystery.
I recall a thread where someone put the Crossclimate+ on their Model 3 and got worse efficiency. It sounds like they have better performance in all other aspects except noise.

 

[clostridium]

@afadeev - You seem to have completely missed my points.

No one doubts tire rack as a source. The problem is in using efficiency results from different tire rack tests using different vehicles on different days. And by efficiency results I mean the MPG testing from tire rack that someone else on this thread introduced into this discussion as being useful and which formed the basis for their conclusion that the CrossClimate is at least as if not more efficient than the MXM4’s. It’s not particularly comparable. They were never intended to be compared to anything except the other tires in that particular test. The tires aren’t the same size, they aren’t on the same vehicle, and they were tested in different conditions 7 years apart.

My point in bringing up the Pilot 4S results is that we know that the efficiency using those tires is definitely worse than others based on dealt world testing yet the efficiency results in the tire rack testing are barely worse. That just goes to show how minimally useful comparing efficiency results from different tire rack tests really is.

I never said that they should make the 4S low rolling resistance, I’m honestly not sure how you got that from my post. My point on the rolling resistance was asking why if the CrossClimate is more efficient than the MXM4 isn’t it strange that they aren’t rated “GreenX” like the MXM4’s are.

Meanwhile, does anyone have actual experience with the CrossClimate’s that can speak to the efficiency differences? Not some hobbled together comparison from reviews many years apart on different cars.

TireRack is about as independent and data-driven 3rd party evaluator as you can get.
Between their in-house testing, and customer feedback and ratings, you will get absolutely the best source of information on tires.
Consumer Reports comes is a distant second, as they test very few tires, and very rarely, and don't solicit customer feedback on the tire products.



What are you referring to "efficiency numbers" for 4S's?
To what "other tires" do you compare 4S's?

There are three (3) types of Michelin Pilot 4S's in existence that fit 20" TM3 wheels:

1. Standard 4S's
2. Porsche OEM 4S's
3. Tesla OEM 4S's with Acoustic Tech

All three are functionally the same, have the same speed and load ratings. Tesla-spec tires have Acoustic Tech layer of sound-absorbing foam on the inner liner of the tire to reduce cabin noise in the vehicle. That makes them heavier, and more expensive to replace. That's about it.

All three are in Max Performance Summer category, and are a world ahead in traction, handling, and performance relative to all-season rubbers.

More info here:
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/TireSearchResults.jsp?tireIndex=0&autoMake=Tesla&autoYear=2019&autoModel=Model+3+Performance&autoModClar=&width=235/&ratio=35&diameter=20&sortCode=59853&skipOver=true&minSpeedRating=V&minLoadRating=XL



You probably mean AWD, as Performance does come with 20" wheels (and 4S tires) and larger red calipers, among other improvements.

AWD comes with either 18" wheels and MXM4 all-season tires, or 19" wheels and Continental ProContact RX all-season tires.




MXM4 is an all-season compromise tire from Michelin. In a different size, they sell it with Honda minivans and other commuter vehicles. MXM4 embodies the definition of a compromise (or compromised?) tire, that tries to do a lot of things semi-OK, including adding slipperiness for extra economy, but accomplishes none of them very well.

4S's is a Max Performance summer tire that is optimized for grip, handling, and performance. Very few street tires do it better.

To degrade 4S's performance by introducing low rolling resistance rubber compounds to it would have been a sacrilege, and would defeat the purpose of optimizing tires for grip and performance in the first place!

a

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Meanwhile, does anyone have actual experience with the CrossClimate’s that can speak to the efficiency differences?

Initial results for me are 20-30Wh/mi improvement vs. the PS4S 20", which is about what I had triangulated/expected based on various peoples' reports on PS4S & MXM4s. I pay attention pretty closely to my work drives and tried to duplicate an efficient drive I took. This improvement would of course be largely independent of vehicle speed.

Initial impressions on CrossClimate+ here:

18" CrossClimate+ Tires on P3D+

I'll post more data somewhere once I drive around with them a bit more. I actually do have some baseline data on a fixed course at constant speed I could reproduce at some point, but have to be a little careful with winds, etc. Anyway, I plan to leave them on for a couple weeks then remove them. I'll double check the efficiency numbers again once the PS4S go back on.

I wouldn't expect that there would be a very noticeable efficiency difference between MXM4s and the CrossClimate+ based on what I've seen so far.

 

[GBMaryland]

I was surprised to get 30 miles more range out of the Goodyear F1 asymmetric versus the Michelin PS4 All-weather.

That being said, the Michelin’s are much better in bad weather, and much better when it comes to hydroplaning.

 

[ngng]

I just mounted a set of the PS4 all seasons and have seen an increase from 286 Wh/mi to 302 Wh/mi over our 34 mile commute. From what I've read, as the tires wear they become slightly more efficient so it ends up being as wash. That being said, I'd rather have a solid tire on the car vs a few miles more of range.

 

[gtg465x]

And that right there is the thing.

Range is great. Stopping 20% shorter in an emergency stop is a lot greater.

I know in some cases the situation is out of the driver’s control and having the quickest stopping distance is beneficial, but it’s even more beneficial, in my opinion, to keep a safe following distance so you don’t have to stop super hard. Just because you can stop on a dime doesn’t mean the person behind you can.

I would be interested in seeing some statistics of how often semi truck drivers rear end people compared to the average passenger car. I suspect they rear end people less than the average driver, which would indicate stopping distance isn’t all that important in comparison to driving technique.

I think some people with performance cars and tires develop an arrogant mindset of “my car can stop way faster than the car in front of me, so it’s fine for me to follow 20 ft behind them going 80.” And they might be right about being able to stop in time, but it just leads to them getting rear ended. If they had just followed further back, they could have come to a much slower stop, given the cars behind them more time to react, and avoided an accident altogether.

 

[GBMaryland]

Green X mark is per size of tire, some sizes get it and some don't. Also Michelin uses the term "Michelin Total Performance" to replace Green X on newer tires. In the case of the CrossClimate+ only the sizes below 225/45/18 get the mark. So for cars that can use the 15", 16" or 17" versions of it definitely get that mark. For whatever reason the size that fits the Model 3 doesn't get the mark.

I saw a post online about the CrossClimate 2 not coming in OEM size for the Model Y.

I was surprised to see that while the speed rating on the CC2 is only V (vs W), it's load rating is about 200lbs higher.

 

[dhanson865]

235/55R18 is what I'd use on a Model Y, you can get the PRIMACY MXM4 - 235/55R18 XL or the CrossClimate 2 235/55R18 in V or H speed rating and both have the Michelin Total Performance label.

18" Aero wheels from the model 3 work well on the Model Y

note that tire size is for the Model Y and is NOT the tire size from a Model 3.

make sure you get the new aeros if you care about load rating

Original Aeros: 700kg
New Aeros: 750kg

The old 18" wheels having a lower load rating might have been part of why Tesla didn't offer the Model Y with 18" wheels at launch, but you can do it now with a clear mind knowing the newer wheels have a higher load rating.

 

[MJB-CO]

The best tire I've found is the PIRELLI P ZERO AS PLUS ELECT (235 /45 R18 98Y XL BSW) which is designed for EVs. The handling is terrific, has low rolling resistance (15% less than the standard P Zero AS), is quieter than the OEM MXM4s, and has a 50,000 mile tread wear gaurantee.
Price was less than the MXMM at Discount Tire.

 

[jkdman123]

The best tire I've found is the PIRELLI P ZERO AS PLUS ELECT (235 /45 R18 98Y XL BSW) which is designed for EVs. The handling is terrific, has low rolling resistance (15% less than the standard P Zero AS), is quieter than the OEM MXM4s, and has a 50,000 mile tread wear gaurantee.
Price was less than the MXMM at Discount Tire.

I considered these, but I just get the feeling that acoustic foam is a gimmick. And it means that you can't use those liquid temp leak sealers. Admittedly, that may be a small consideration, but with no spare tire in the M3, I feel better knowing that the $80 tire kit Tesla sold me will actually work with the tires on the car.

I went with the Continental Extreme Contact DWS06 Plus. Cheaper than MXM4s and the sound is the same even though they don't have the foam. I don't drive hard or brake hard so I can't really attest to their handling limits vs. the MXM4s. I just knew that the MXM4s wore out way earlier than they should have. Some people say this is a function of BEVs being heavier. Maybe, maybe not. I'll see how the Continentals do.

I researched for about 2-3 weeks before deciding on those. Tire Rack was my main source but it really is more art than science when figuring it out. There are just too many variables that most people are not taking into account when they give a review. I weighted the Tire Rack review heavier than customer reviews, but even then, it was hard to really compare one model to another.

 

[XPsionic]

The best tire I've found is the PIRELLI P ZERO AS PLUS ELECT (235 /45 R18 98Y XL BSW) which is designed for EVs. The handling is terrific, has low rolling resistance (15% less than the standard P Zero AS), is quieter than the OEM MXM4s, and has a 50,000 mile tread wear gaurantee.
Price was less than the MXMM at Discount Tire.

Have you used these yourself? Wonder how the efficiency compares to the MXM4. I'm looking forward to wearing out the OEM MXM4 and putting on something with a bit more grip but with similar efficiency myself. Michelin AS4 would be my pick but the 10-12% efficiency hit would be a bit annoying in my SR+ for longer trips.

 

[GBMaryland]

235/55R18 is what I'd use on a Model Y, you can get the PRIMACY MXM4 - 235/55R18 XL or the CrossClimate 2 235/55R18 in V or H speed rating and both have the Michelin Total Performance label.

18" Aero wheels from the model 3 work well on the Model Y

note that tire size is for the Model Y and is NOT the tire size from a Model 3.

make sure you get the new aeros if you care about load rating

Original Aeros: 700kg
New Aeros: 750kg

The old 18" wheels having a lower load rating might have been part of why Tesla didn't offer the Model Y with 18" wheels at launch, but you can do it now with a clear mind knowing the newer wheels have a higher load rating.

I wonder what the load rating is for the 20in Uberturbine wheel off the M3P?

I’ve got them with the F1 Assemetrics and never considered the wheel’s load rating vs the tire’s load rating.

The advantage is that the OE 20s fit on those wheels, but are slightly proud… leading to curb rash protection… and they’re still uberturbines.

 

[MJB-CO]

I considered these, but I just get the feeling that acoustic foam is a gimmick. And it means that you can't use those liquid temp leak sealers. Admittedly, that may be a small consideration, but with no spare tire in the M3, I feel better knowing that the $80 tire kit Tesla sold me will actually work with the tires on the car.

I went with the Continental Extreme Contact DWS06 Plus. Cheaper than MXM4s and the sound is the same even though they don't have the foam. I don't drive hard or brake hard so I can't really attest to their handling limits vs. the MXM4s. I just knew that the MXM4s wore out way earlier than they should have. Some people say this is a function of BEVs being heavier. Maybe, maybe not. I'll see how the Continentals do.

I researched for about 2-3 weeks before deciding on those. Tire Rack was my main source but it really is more art than science when figuring it out. There are just too many variables that most people are not taking into account when they give a review. I weighted the Tire Rack review heavier than customer reviews, but even then, it was hard to really compare one model to another.

The acoustic foam is basically the same as what's in the MXM4s, but the tire's design is quieter. They are also designed to handle the heavier weight of an EV, hence the 50,000 treadwear gaurantee.

 

[MJB-CO]

Have you used these yourself? Wonder how the efficiency compares to the MXM4. I'm looking forward to wearing out the OEM MXM4 and putting on something with a bit more grip but with similar efficiency myself. Michelin AS4 would be my pick but the 10-12% efficiency hit would be a bit annoying in my SR+ for longer trips.

Yes, I have them on my 3 and I have about 10,000 miles on them. They are much more efficient then the MXM4s. I did a 5,000+ miles trip last fall and beat the range estimates of A Better Route Planner by 10 - 15% on each leg of the trip. With the MXM4s I might just match the ABRP estimates.
I've never run Pirellis before - historically they had great handling but poor tread wear. This time around they have the best treadwear warranty I've found plus the great handling.

 

[EnzoXYZ]

I like to add I recently purchased the PIRELLI P ZERO AS PLUS ELECT for our S due to the rave review on how quiet these are. I can say for sure there was a huge difference vs my older tires. Can wait to get these on our newish Model Y as the stock ones are very loud.

 

[FrostByt371]

Someone needs a hug.