How did you get used to and/or trust EAP/NOA/FSD?

[Stomsf]

Hi All -- Love the car and these forums! So I've been driving my LR AWD M3 for a few months and absolutely love it. However I remain skittish about using EAP/NOA/FSD when driving at higher speeds on the highway. In traffic it's a godsend and I have no issues with it at all. But at speeds over 50 mph I get nervous about the car driving and making turns, and just don't quite feel comfortable yet.

Is this something others have experienced? If you got over it, was it something in particular that happened? I suppose there is a lot of performance and maneuvering I am missing out on as my driving habits were formed largely on less sporty and looser handling cars, but can't seem to get over the nervous feeling when driving at faster speeds.

Thanks!

 

[C141medic]

Hi All -- Love the car and these forums! So I've been driving my LR AWD M3 for a few months and absolutely love it. However I remain skittish about using EAP/NOA/FSD when driving at higher speeds on the highway. In traffic it's a godsend and I have no issues with it at all. But at speeds over 50 mph I get nervous about the car driving and making turns, and just don't quite feel comfortable yet.

Is this something others have experienced? If you got over it, was it something in particular that happened? I suppose there is a lot of performance and maneuvering I am missing out on as my driving habits were formed largely on less sporty and looser handling cars, but can't seem to get over the nervous feeling when driving at faster speeds.

Thanks!

You’ll get used to the features. Just give it a little time. Best advice I can give you is always remain in control. Although EAP/FSD have improved tremendously, it’s still very important to remain attentive and take over at a moments notice just in case.

 

[Proflig8tor]

I am a pilot; been a pilot for 37 years.

Flown airplanes with autopilots that simply didn't. Some would turn left. Others would nervously bounce from one side to the other as they hit their limit switches. Some would work pretty well until the wind blew, then you'd careen off course. One all of a sudden pitched up and aimed for the moon (turned out to be a blockage in a static line). That one was certified for full on autolandings.

So, like with any autopilot, you "trust, but verify." The TESLA autopilot is really very good, but it is not autonomous at this stage and is no replacement for a skilled driver.

The situational display around the car is EXTREMELY useful. I also find the autopilot a safe way to futz around on the screen with settings for the AC or checking energy use. Just like in an aircraft, you use the autopilot to handle simple tasks when you are distracted setting up something else or when in cruise and you just want to minimize fatigue. I can fly an airplane for an eight-hour stretch, but it would be safer to delegate that task and be fresh when needed to intervene.

MHO, the TESLA's autopilot reaction time is probably better than an average human's. I'm fine with it.

 

[OCR1]

I agree that it's comfortable to use in heavy stop and go traffic. I never got used to using it at high speeds in heavy traffic so I just don't use it under those conditions. I'd rather just drive the car myself.

 

[Sandiegodoug]

I used it on empty freeways initially. Then freeways with light traffic , taking control when I wasn’t sure car would react. Now, I find it seems pretty reliable, even in heavier traffic. I still watch it like a hawk, but feel it’s reliable I’m most non emergency situations on freeways. I do not use in town or on highways, only freeways

 

[jordanair45]

Well, I saw a whole bunch of videos on it so I trusted it.

When I first had auto pilot, I put it through the wringer. I went on crazy roads (not advised) and it worked really well.

Then, I upgraded to FSD and pushed it to the limit. I was very vigilant, on stand by, always ready to take over, and the more I used it, the more confidence I had in it, the more I trusted it. Mergers, lane changes, construction zones, approaching cars at stoplights, you name it.

The past couple of days were my first days using it in the rain. So far, so good!

It was scary at first, but the system is very good, and it will slow down when it needs to on NoA (it is sometimes restricted to a certain speed on a tricky turn).

Just try it out at a lower speed first, stay in the slow lane. Have FAITH in it, be ready to take over (you won't need to do). You start to trust it a lot more. I no longer hate doing road trips now...nice and easy with NoA

 

[Johnny Mac]

Use it every chance you get.

 

[Big Dog]

I only use EAP at on the freeway, both low and high speeds -- perfect for stop-and-go traffic or 70 mph+. But not a fan of NOA; too many stupid ideas, such as move into car pool lane when I will be exiting two miles down the road and more importantly, I'm already doing 65+. I click on Ignore, but then 10-15 seconds later it the silly prompt pops up again. I'm more than happy to exit or change a freeway under my driving ability.

 

[Chisale]

I sort of think of it as a brand new teenage driver I'm teaching the ropes to. First let it take over on a rural stretch of road with nobody around. Then if it proves itself you gradually work it up to more and more complicated situations with heavier traffic/more numerous and faster lane changes. If you're not feeling comfortable at any stage you stall out and step it back a notch or two. Then work it up again as your comfort level dictate.
The only major issue which is totally unlike a new driver is phantom braking. There just isn't any "talking to" or taking a step back on that one. You just have to be vigilant for it especially in the places it's likely to occur. I'm sure the fine people at Tesla are pulling their hair out on that one every day. It's just a fleeting phenomenon that isn't easy to reproduce. You can turn around and go back over the same road with same conditions and one time it will do it and the next not.
Anyway, in summary just keep working with it, keep increasing the frequency and difficulty and always remain attentive. And only go to the level you're comfortable with.

 

[Enginerd]

My testing has documented 3509 NOA lane change events to date, with 91.2% being an unqualified success. That's how much I trust NOA. About 1 in 11 lane changes might be a wildcard. Be ready for it. And enjoy the peace of mind that comes from the car watching your back and keeping you safely following and centered the rest of the time.

 

[BEPA400]

Well, since my grip is stronger than the AP steering inputs, if it tries something I wouldn’t have done, it doesn’t happen because I’m still holding the wheel. This happens frequently. So I don’t let go of the wheel.. and for good reason. But I’m still on AP every chance I can. Sure I let go of the wheel from time to time to do something briefly with my hands, but that’s no different than I would have done with any car that doesn’t have AP.

 

[vjason]

26 miles RT on the Raleigh outerbelt 5 days a week.
8 RT (and counting) trips to Kitty Hawk using I-64, about 215 miles each way.

15K miles, I'll bet 70% (minimum) were using NOA. I've used it enough to know what to watch out for.

Both trips average 70+ MPH with different traffic types.

 

[jdcollins5]

16,000 miles and using EAP almost daily. I have learned where the system may act up and usually have my foot over the accelerator or brake to override if necessary. Always have my hand on the wheel and ready to intervene.

For NoA I still have Auto Lange Change set to manual confirmation. The system still wants to make unnecessary lane changes. Everything else seems to work OK. Once they improve the lane changes I will turn auto lane change back on. I keep NoA on in light to moderate traffic but turn it off in heavy traffic. I prefer to make lane changes manually in high traffic areas.

 

[St☰v☰]

To the OP, it took me a couple of months before I actually turned on TACC and even longer before I turned on AP. AP is OK, but still has issues, so I don't use it very frequently.

But the real question is, why use it at all? Here me out... TACC I can see, it's a very smart cruise control and excellent in SoCal traffic, but AP/NOA/FSD, while nifty, still require the driver to hold the wheel. So if you have to hold the wheel, unless you're cheating the device, why not just steer and brake for yourself? You have to hold the wheel, so what are you really gaining? I'm not against FSD, I almost bought it with my 3, I'm just trying to rationalize its usefulness when you have to hold the wheel anyway.

 

[animorph]

#1 Reading TMC posts about what AP is doing now. I know what to watch out for. I know it is very unlikely to do anything crazy in simple situations. "Truck lust" (swerving toward big trucks) used to be a big thing. Now it is good to be aware that it will try to move away from big vehicles, sometimes abruptly. It still phantom brakes for several reasons.

#2 Test your controls to get a sense of how it feels. Engage Autosteer and then turn the wheel enough to disengage it. You need to torque the wheel less than that to avoid nags without disengaging Autosteer. The car may jerk a little as you take over. You can smooth that out with a bit of practice. Pay some attention to the TACC and Autosteer icons to make sure you really are in the mode you think you are. Nothing like thinking you're in Autosteer when you're not. Cancel AP with the brakes and with the stalk to see what happens.

#3 Experience. Work up from the easy cases into more complex situations. You'll be able to anticipate situations AP might not handle well. Freeway driving in a straight line and not in the right lane (to avoid merges and lane widening) is a good start. My wife uses TACC on surface streets all the time, so I guess she's comfortable with it. I think TACC is too likely to surprise me on surface streets so I don't use it. Different experience levels for us. I use Autosteer on the freeway, My wife prefers to steer, doesn't trust the car to steer, and doesn't have much experience with Autosteer. You'll become more comfortable as you gain experience.

#4 Hold the wheel firmly with one hand on the bottom half, letting your arm hang off the wheel to create enough torque to avoid the nags. Always be aware of your driving situation. You'll be able to feel the wheel turn before you can see the result visually. You'll be able to take control instantly if the car is doing something you don't like. I also hover my foot over the accelerator pedal, where I can goose it if the car decides to brake for no reason, or have a natural motion to the brakes if required. If I'm in a bad construction zone or other problem area I'll put both hands on the wheel, or simply disable AP until things look better.

#5 Don't wait for too long for AP to respond to a situation. You may find yourself waiting to see if AP is going to stop, or expecting it to stop, but it just isn't doing it. Kind of like the frog in a pot slowly heating to a boil. If AP is making you uncomfortable, take over. Used to be AP was pretty poor about seeing stationary vehicles, like cars at a full stop on the freeway. I used to take over and brake early in those situations. Now it does pretty well, but rarely we've had to manually brake. You just never know for now. You are the test driver.

 

[RayK]

In a single word, experience. Initially I didn't want EAP or FSD when I bought the car. I hardly ever used cruise control on my previous cars. Only after having EAP as a free trial did I buy into it. Since then I've used it as designed (i.e., highway/freeway situations) and as I've built up experience and confidence using it, have I tried it out on some city streets and expressways. Always with at least one hand on the wheel, foot over the accelerator (as backup for phantom braking) and paying attention to what's in front and around me. TACC is very useful in stop-and-go traffic on the highway, or for signal lights at the end of metering ramps. Lane keeping (Autosteer) should be enhanced with an option to hug the left or right side of the lane in order to allow for lane-splitting motorcycles (legal here in CA), but with adequate lane markings, it performs as it should. Automatic lane changes worked fine until an OTA update made it hesitant to move over but that was solved (in my case) by toggling into and out of Mad Mad mode one time. I did not try NoA until I had some EAP mileage under my belt but sometimes I'm confused when it prompts to change lanes in what I consider the wrong direction (move left when my exit is coming up on the right in a couple of miles). I still don't use EAP in heavy rain. Same goes for curvy, mountainous roads like Highway 17 into Santa Cruz.

My wife is still not comfortable with EAP riding as a passenger, even if I keep my hands on the wheel. She insists that I not use it when she is in the car but I've managed to turn it on most times we're on the freeway.

 

[Knightshade]

But the real question is, why use it at all? Here me out... TACC I can see, it's a very smart cruise control and excellent in SoCal traffic, but AP/NOA/FSD, while nifty, still require the driver to hold the wheel. So if you have to hold the wheel, unless you're cheating the device, why not just steer and brake for yourself? You have to hold the wheel, so what are you really gaining?

Quite a lot.

You're not constantly having to make microadjustments to keep the car straight for one- which massively reduces the amount of work and stress on a long drive.... I arrive far better rested and relaxed compared to "steering myself" on such trips.

You also get back all the brain cycles spent on the minutiae of steering to instead pay better attention to the overall road picture.

The car can also see in every direction at once when changing lanes, my head doesn't rotate that quickly

Also braking is TACC, not AP/NOA/FSD so not sure why you threw that in with those?

 

[kev1n]

after about 2 years, i got use to it and learn when and when not to trust it. i also see you're in SF. roads here are hit or miss. its best to pay full attention while in autopilot until you know which roads are great and not so great. in general, going 60+ on a highway turn is a bit shaky depending on the lines/curvature.

 

[HappyWino]

Personally I've found AP/NOA to be far more "trustworthy" on freeways (where they recommend it's used) and far more sketchy on surface streets (where they don't recommend it's used). I've experienced some things on the freeway that just make me shake my head and smile...much like the teenage driver scenario somebody else mentioned. On surface streets it's made far more potentially dangerous choices. In both scenarios my hands and feet are always ready to apply corrective actions.

 

[drtimhill]

It's good that you are nervous, not because TACC/NOA are bad, but because you are doing the sensible thing .. assuming something is not safe until you can reassure yourself that it is. That said, I would advice doing what I did .. do things a step at a time.

(1) Start with TACC only (no autosteer) on a quiet freeway (Sunday mornings early are good). Experiment with the follow distance, and observe how the actual distance changes with speed for a given setting. Watch the lane display to see the radar "lock" onto a car (it will be a darker gray), and how it changes this lock as a car merges in front of you.

(2) Then add autosteer (not NOA), again on a quiet road. Dont bother with lane changes at first, just watch how the car handles keeping in lane, how on/off ramp lane lines sometimes make the car "center" in the wide lane (dont panic). Try taking back control by yanking the steering wheel. Get used to the feel of how much pressure you need on the wheel to avoid nags (it was more than I expected). Experiment in different weather and at night if you can (I was amazed at how well it drives at night, it can find lane lines on a dark night that I can hardly see myself).

(3) Then try driver-initiated lane changes with autosteer (use the turn signal fully up/down to start one). Observe how the car handles them, try doing one as a car comes by (a bit scary at first). Notice how the car shows on the display what it intends to do.

(4) Once you have done that, try on a slightly busier freeway. Watch how the car handles traffic, how and when it notices cars, and compare that to your own awareness of cars (and blind spot, that the car doesnt have). Try lane changes with more traffic. Again, try starting a lane change when its not safe and see how the car reacts (it won't change lanes and crash).

(5) Finally, go ahead and enable NOA, again on a quiet stretch of freeway. Leave settings on conservative (lane change conformation etc), and watch the car make decisions (good and bad) about when/where it wants to change lanes and/or take on/off ramps. As you gain confidence you can try handling over more control to the car, and see which settings you are comfortable with.

Once you have a "feel" for what the car can and cannot do you will develop normal anticipation of "hmm, the car won't handle this well" far ahead of time, much like you do for other road conditions.

But always remember you are ultimately responsible for safety .. the care tries to be safe, and in a sort of moronic way it is *very* safe, but it can make blunders, just like all the other drivers around you on the freeway. And you cope with those, dont you?