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How many kWh can they squeeze into the Model 3...?

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I agree. I totally am hoping options are tons cheaper for the 3, but if they are not I understand the circle they are playing in and won't be too upset.


The holidays have slowed down my savings drive (grumble....grumble....family.....grumble.....grumble) LOL, but if I got an email link TODAY for the Design Studio, I'd have the cash on-hand to get the car, with minimal financing ( <$15K), and even then, that's only until I sell the current car, which I don't owe anything on.


But it's likely that I'll have to move my money out of the CD it's in now and put it into savings to keep that flexibility and liquidity ready to go.

The later in 2017 I get in the Design Studio, the more likely that I'll own the Model 3 outright on delivery day. I literally started saving for the next car as soon as I got the title on the Audi.......and I look forward to checking as many boxes as possible.

EDIT: IF I have to finance anything at all, as long as I work the payments out to less than $800/month (money currently being automatically sent to my CD), then it will end up being a net-zero hit on my month to month living expenses.....so that's kinda nice.
 
BMW 3 Series options vs 5 Series options (shown as 3/5)
Metallic paint: $700/$550
Leather Interior: $1450/$1450
Wood Trim: $500/$0 (included)
Cold Weather: $800/$950 (slightly more features)
Driver Assistance: $950/$1800 (5 series includes backup camera and upgraded instrument cluster)
LED Headlights: $700/$1900 (5 series includes adaptive LED headlights, 3 Series are fixed)

If Tesla takes this approach, it appears that "like" options will unlikely be discounted. However, packages that sound similar could potentially include more features on the higher priced models (features unavailable to the less expensive line), and therefore could be more expensive. For instance, cold weather on the X has four heated seats, a heated steering wheel, and heated wipers. The 3 could potentially not ship with heated front seats, and the cold weather package would heat only those.
 
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The 3 could potentially not ship with heated front seats, and the cold weather package would heat only those.


You had me onboard up until that line. I think they'll keep standard front seat heaters on the Model 3. Elon has stated a few times that it's more efficient to heat the front 2 occupants using seat warmers than it is to use a heater. Efficiency is what he's after, and if using a seat heater boosts range, I am totally OK with the price of those seats being "baked in" (ha!) to the cost of the car.

And being as I'm in New England, I'd likely pay for the Subzero Package anyway.
 
You had me onboard up until that line. I think they'll keep standard front seat heaters on the Model 3. Elon has stated a few times that it's more efficient to heat the front 2 occupants using seat warmers than it is to use a heater. Efficiency is what he's after, and if using a seat heater boosts range, I am totally OK with the price of those seats being "baked in" (ha!) to the cost of the car.

And being as I'm in New England, I'd likely pay for the Subzero Package anyway.
Good point. I was honestly just trying to come up with a package that I could strip down, and that's the first thing that came to mind. I use the seat heaters in lieu of the cabin heat frequently when I'm trying to stretch range or just keep my consumption down.
 
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Good point. I was honestly just trying to come up with a package that I could strip down, and that's the first thing that came to mind. I use the seat heaters in lieu of the cabin heat frequently when I'm trying to stretch range or just keep my consumption down.


I wholeheartedly agree that Tesla will look for "production efficiencies", and look into bundling where they can.

Probably an exterior appearance package? (roof, wheels)

A premium interior package? (dash trim, steering wheel wrap, next gen seats)

An infotainment package? (satellite radio, upgraded stereo)

Subzero package

and I'm sure they could come up with others....maybe a "traveler package" that includes the higher amperage onboard charger and either SC for life, or a large number of SC "credits"?

Intriguing possibilities......
 
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The M3 has nothing to do with the MS. Neither does the price.

The M3 has to compete with the Audi A4 and such.


A 2017 S4 (think Performance-level Model 3) base price is ~$50K. Not sure what comes standard and what's optional, as the A4 and S4 just went through a mid-cycle refresh. Their option sheets and pricing aren't out yet.

But if I can get a Model 3 with the big battery, in Performance-trim, with AWD, for around ~$50K before checking off any other boxes, I'd certainly be ok with that.
 
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Earlier, I quoted @ModelNforNerd with, "I don't think in my posts I was setting it up as a competition between the 2 models, but more of a comparison, because, what would be a more apt comparison to make?"

To which I replied with, "Simple. A fully loaded Model S costs far less than a fully loaded Panamera Turbo S, a fully loaded Alpina B7, or a fully loaded Mercedes-AMG S-Class. Look at the ratio of difference for each of those. Then take a look at the fully loaded price points for AUDI S4, BMW M3, and Mercedes-AMG C-Class. Apply a similar percentage discount, and that is how much you would save over those ICE vehicles by getting a fully loaded Model ☰ instead. Sorted. Fairly. Done."

I'd like to expand on that somewhat. See, one thing that has always peeved me is that for some reason, Tesla Naysayers always point to the base price of the Porsche Panamera or Cayenne, then claim that the Model S and Model X are somehow 'overpriced'. However, the base price for the Panamera Turbo S is much higher than the base amount for a Model S P100D. And, you can add thousands upon thousands to the Panamera Turbo S in a veritable multitude of fashions. Also, the Cayenne Turbo S costs a lot more than the Model X P100D to start ($20,800).

$134,500 - Model S P100D Base
$167,500 - Model S P100D Loaded
$180,300 - Panamera Turbo S Base
$263,900 - Panamera Turbo S Exclusive Series

$159,600 - Cayenne Turbo S Base
$205,485 - Cayenne Turbo S Loaded
$138,800 - Model X P100D Base
$168,050 - Model X P100D Loaded

About the only measurable statistic by which the Panamera may 'win' over the Model S (or Cayenne over Model X) is in Top Speed. Which is only applicable in shorter and shorter segments of the Autobahn or on a closed circuit racetrack. Thus, in the real world we inhabit, wherein people drive much lower speeds while attempting to remain in a pseudo-legal sphere, the top speed (of 155, 186, 191 MPH) is of no significance. Even compliance cars are generally allowed a capability to reach 90-to-100 MPH these days, most of the time.

In terms of non-measurables, there is of course the perceived 'quality of materials' used in Porsche vehicles. For some, that is worth a lot. Even to the point that they never cease complaining that the 'quality' of interiors within Tesla Motors products is somehow substandard, and thus 'not worth it'. My point is that with the tens of thousands of dollars you would have left over by purchasing a Tesla instead of the Porsche, you can definitely find a nice custom upholstery shop that will gladly take your money from you in order to 'upgrade' the Tesla interiors to your specific liking.

And, again, I expect the same level of difference between the Model ☰ and its peers. The thing is that the items most people associate with 'luxury' are not really all that expensive to put in a car. There is a reason why the Toyota Avalon XLE costs so much less than the Lexus ES, even though they are essentially the same vehicle. It's called 'marketing'. And the Camry XLE costs even less than the Avalon XLE. If you can convince people that a particular badge is worth more money, you can charge more money to acquire it.

$26,310 - 191″ L x 72″ W x 58″ H - 2017 Camry XLE
$33,250 - 195″ L x 72″ W x 58″ H - 2017 Avalon XLE
$38,900 - 193″ L x 72″ W x 57″ H - 2017 Lexus ES

I don't put much stock in claims of 'luxury'. I truly do not care about it at all. I consider most of the trappings of luxury to be naught more than window dressing, applicable to any vehicle and adding very little in terms of value and almost nothing when it comes to functionality.

So, here's my WAG regarding top-of-the-line pricing relative to the primary competitor:

$64,000 - BMW M3 Base
$82,000 - BMW M3 Well Equipped
$93,045 - BMW M3 Loaded
$54,000 - Model ☰ P100D Base
$69,000 - Model ☰ P100D Well Equipped
$78,500 - Model ☰ P100D Loaded

Of course, I could be wrong. I just sincerely doubt there will be a plethora of over $100,000 configurations available for the Model ☰ as some seem to be convinced of happening. I think the Model ☰ will be an absolute bargain to Consumers even in its 'Maximum Performance, Maximum Range' configuration.
 
So, here's my WAG regarding top-of-the-line pricing relative to the primary competitor:

$64,000 - BMW M3 Base
$82,000 - BMW M3 Well Equipped
$93,045 - BMW M3 Loaded
$54,000 - Model ☰ P100D Base
$69,000 - Model ☰ P100D Well Equipped
$78,500 - Model ☰ P100D Loaded

Of course, I could be wrong. I just sincerely doubt there will be a plethora of over $100,000 configurations available for the Model ☰ as some seem to be convinced of happening. I think the Model ☰ will be an absolute bargain to Consumers even in its 'Maximum Performance, Maximum Range' configuration.


I tend to agree that you won't be able to top $100K on a Model 3. There will be some overlap at the high end of Model 3/low end of Model S, and I think we're already seeing some of that, as people are getting themselves into low end Model S, rather than wait, or are leasing until the 3 becomes available.

I think Tesla realizes that, too. They need to make a high-end Model 3 more compelling than a base Model S, because we all know that where Tesla makes their per unit profit is in the margins on options.

The Model S is more expensive to produce, because it's not being done in as large a volume as the 3, and the Model S assembly lines won't be converted into "the machine that builds the machine" for a while, so as a company, they're going to make far more profit getting you into a $78,500 Model 3 P100D than they would getting you into a $66,000 Model S60.

It all hinges on the battery pack cost, and if the Gigafactory is spitting them out as fast as a machine gun would be able to fire them out....it will all turn out OK.
 
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All possible, *if* Tesla does indeed seek the same profit margins on options as the Model S on a "mass market" car. I seriously doubt they will do that because they need to price options in such a way as to incentivize customers to have an uptake rate. If you want profit margins you need uptake on the options but you can't price it out of context of the car. Tesla can get away with it on the Model S because the base price is basically double the Model 3 (priced in line with the car's market) and they're pretty transparent about the fact that the Model S and X with high profit margins are paying for all the R&D etc...

A basic example is that you can't really charge $2000 for basic metallic paint on a car with a base price of $35K!!! Who would buy that?? If they indeed kept the current colour selection and pricing as the Model S we're going to see a hell of a lot of black Model 3s around...

Besides, if you take Elon's comment of dual motor options would be "less" than Model S one could extrapolate the rest of the options would be in line with that thinking.

Elon said at the last financial call that a few things on the Model 3 cost more than a Model S but most of them were half the cost... To me it seems at this stage that they have their cost projections under control.

So the short answer is it possible that Tesla will price options on the Model 3 to basically double the car's base price? Sure.

But would Tesla really chance a massive amount of reservation cancellations if they priced the Model 3 out of the intended market with even a modicum of options? That's something we'll know for sure when the configurator goes online sometime next year.
Good points. But... You must also keep in mind the pricing strategies of Tesla's direct competitors. The BMW 3-Series currently starts at $33,450. The BMW M3 starts at more than $30,000 over that, at $64,000. And you can add options above and beyond that amount to the tune of at least another $30,000 if you want:
upload_2016-12-14_12-15-24.png

I expect that compared to that rate of advancement, a fully loaded Model ☰ at a dime under $75,000 would be considered a BARGAIN.

By the way... Perhaps BMW's Champagne Quartz Metallic paint isn't 'basic'... But it does cost $1,950 for some reason.
 
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I do get that point. I guess the question that needs to be answered is what is the market they are going after. If it is the Honda Civic market then they have already priced themselves on the high end.I thought that BMW/Mercedes/Audi were the target market, where 35K is the entry price. The performance models of those brands for the entry cars all start at like 60K then you get to add options. I actually think the Audi is the cheapest one of the 3 for the version that they sell in the States.
For some reason, the AUDI S4 has disappeared from their website. I think it used to be shown at just about $50,000 as its base price (Car and Driver estimates the 2018 AUDI S4 will be $53,000). The Infiniti Q50 RED Sport 400 is pretty cheap too, at $48,700 to start and $50,700 for the AWD version. Then there is the Lexus IS F-Sport which starts at $41,370 and ranges up to $44,525. The Mercedes-AMG C63 Sedan is among the expensive lot at $72,800 to start. While the BMW M3 begins at $64,000. And Cadillac ATS-V is $60,695. It's kind of hard to nail down pricing on the sport versions of the Alfa Romeo Giulia (Quadrifoglio, $72,000) and Jaguar XE (S) though, almost as if it is a secret. I think a Performance version of the Tesla Model ☰ is going to kick all their butts, on the track, and in sales -- and do so in spades!
 
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The Model S is more expensive to produce, because it's not being done in as large a volume as the 3, and the Model S assembly lines won't be converted into "the machine that builds the machine" for a while, so as a company, they're going to make far more profit getting you into a $78,500 Model 3 P100D than they would getting you into a $66,000 Model S60.
The Model S is doing pretty well for a car that Elon Musk originally predicted might be able to manage around 15,000 units per year worldwide. They had sold 7 years worth of vehicles at that rate after only 4-1/2 years. I estimate they will have sold 11 years worth of Model S cars by the end of 2016. And the car was designed expecting to last an 8 year life cycle. Unless Tesla ends up constructing battery packs for the Model S using the new 2170 battery cells, it is very likely the car is about as inexpensive to build as it ever will be. So every sale from this point forward is just gravy for Tesla's bottom line. Should Tesla manage to keep growing sales of the Model S year-over-year through 2020, it is likely a whole bunch of flagship vehicles from traditional automobile manufacturers will disappear entirely from the marketplace (assuming they don't become fully electric).
 
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Folks complain about VW being to expensive compared to it's competitors (Honda, etc)...
Yup! The old "Yeah... but it's GERMAN!" point only goes so far with Consumers. That said, it is interesting that the Volkswagen GOLF is the second best selling passenger vehicle in the world, year-in and year-out behind the Toyota Corolla... But while the Corolla finishes each year within the top three-to-five cars in the U.S. the GOLF is nowhere to be found within the top 30. Currently, YTD through November 2016: Corolla #2 with 346,999 sold, and Golf #33 at 52,719. At least that is around 500 units more than the #34 Honda FIT (even though it is ~280,000 behind the #3 Honda Civic).
 
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Tesla Model 3 top battery pack option will be lower than 100 kWh, says Elon Musk

Disappointing tweets for me. On top of the disppointing form of "communication" by Tweets in general.

If the slightly smaller car can't accomodate 100kWh despite the switch to 2170 cells (denser and longer), what does that say about the actual density gaines?
I have SOME hopes that Tesla have sacrificed density to achieve faster charging. Compared to medium range BEV's on the market, Model S and X simply have slow charging batteries now. A low cost BEV such as the Ioniq with kWh capacity can be see charging over 65kW. Meaning, 200kW+ would be possible in a 100kWh car. Teslas have yet to demonstrate more than 120kW, and that's battery limited, not charge limited.
So who know, perhaps Model 3 in its 55-60kWh base version will already charge at 100kW or better?

Another option is that the Model 3 pack will actually have a rather conservative layout in terms of space utilization, or coling tech that's reliable and low cost, while taking up more space that we might expect.

Most on here didn't believe my 100kW expectations, so you can tell me you told me so.
S&X to stay at 100kW for a while, potentially the S100D even beating the top Model 3 for rated range?

Discuss.
 
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