How ridiculous is NOT installing a 240v service?

[Bob_00]

Hi All,

I know this topic comes up regularly and I have read a ton of threads on it and they almost all say the same thing, 240v is pretty much a necessity in winter, but can anyone relate any experiences in surviving winter (particularly Ottawa region) on a 15A/120v service alone.

Unfortunately, our 100A panel is pretty much full, so in all likelihood I am looking at upgrading the panel, or opting for a lower amperage breaker (20A). I would consider a panel upgrade, but we are thinking of moving in the next year or two, so I'm not keen on investing that kind of money if we aren't going to stay long term. Likewise, investing in a 20A/240v, especially if we are going to be moving doesn't seen ideal either, unless absolutely necessary.

We have 2 M3s (SR+ and LR AWD), and luckily our daily usage is low. 20-30km each a day, so the 120v handles our daily needs flawlessly thus far, but come winter, is this at all viable? We have 2 individual outdoor circuits, so each car can have a dedicated charge feed (about 1kw / 8 km/h warm weather), but I am not sure how much of this will be diverted to battery warming as I've read varying accounts with no real confirmation. In the depths of an Ottawa winter, can the 120v service provide enough power to warm the battery and supply any charging power, even a couple km/h? Ottawa's only supercharger is downtown, not super convenient, but we do have various L2 options around, so periodic top offs is doable without much struggle, but not something I want to be dealing with on a daily basis.

Thanks.

 

[Casmium]

Can you convert either of those outlets to a 6-15 assuming they are not shared with anything else, you can then get the adapter from tesla assuming you are using the mobile connector, it would give you almost triple the charging speed.

 

[mongo]

Hi All,

I know this topic comes up regularly and I have read a ton of threads on it and they almost all say the same thing, 240v is pretty much a necessity in winter, but can anyone relate any experiences in surviving winter (particularly Ottawa region) on a 15A/120v service alone.

Unfortunately, our 100A panel is pretty much full, so in all likelihood I am looking at upgrading the panel, or opting for a lower amperage breaker (20A). I would consider a panel upgrade, but we are thinking of moving in the next year or two, so I'm not keen on investing that kind of money if we aren't going to stay long term. Likewise, investing in a 20A/240v, especially if we are going to be moving doesn't seen ideal either, unless absolutely necessary.

We have 2 M3s (SR+ and LR AWD), and luckily our daily usage is low. 20-30km each a day, so the 120v handles our daily needs flawlessly thus far, but come winter, is this at all viable? We have 2 individual outdoor circuits, so each car can have a dedicated charge feed (about 1kw / 8 km/h warm weather), but I am not sure how much of this will be diverted to battery warming as I've read varying accounts with no real confirmation. In the depths of an Ottawa winter, can the 120v service provide enough power to warm the battery and supply any charging power, even a couple km/h? Ottawa's only supercharger is downtown, not super convenient, but we do have various L2 options around, so periodic top offs is doable without much struggle, but not something I want to be dealing with on a daily basis.

Thanks.

Not sure how this works with Canadian electrical code, but if each of those is a dedicated circuit, can you go to a 240V 15A breaker, and change the outlet to a NEMA 6-15 without neutral (white and black become the phase conductors)? That would double your available power at minimal cost (listed as 11 miles or range per hour, but that is without heating).
Gen 2 NEMA Adapters

Edit: Ninjaed by @Casmium

 

[Glydadx2]

Using the 120V adapter (in the spring outdoors) I was getting max 6KM an hour of charge on my M3. Assuming a 12 hour charge you may get 70km. With battery life challenged in cold winters you will see 2 factors - slower charging as well as more battery consumption. 20-30 km of use a day should not be much of an issue but you will most likely be right at the max of use vs replenishing the battery nightly

 

[bsietz]

I got my M3 in September 2018 and just recently installed a 240V circuit for the charger and boy does that make a difference!

I too have a 100A service and was also completely full. I even have an old breaker box - Cutter-Hammer so to make it work, I swapped out some full sized breakers for some double ones. If you combine 8 wide breakers into 4 double breakers (same number of breakers just thinner) then you should have enough physical space for a 50A breaker.

Good luck!

 

[tomot]

There are a number of you tube videos on how to install a sub-panel that connects to your main panel. A Sub-panel is an ideal solution for your charging needs. I rationalized that a Nema 6-20 plug with a 20 amp breaker was sufficient for my needs. It charges 480km in ~ 16hrs
Don't procrastinate... just do it!

 

[Bob_00]

I got my M3 in September 2018 and just recently installed a 240V circuit for the charger and boy does that make a difference!

I too have a 100A service and was also completely full. I even have an old breaker box - Cutter-Hammer so to make it work, I swapped out some full sized breakers for some double ones. If you combine 8 wide breakers into 4 double breakers (same number of breakers just thinner) then you should have enough physical space for a 50A breaker.

Good luck!

I have the physical space for a new breaker, it's more the load that is limiting me. With AC, electric dryer, oven, etc, I am at the limit of my loading (based on my rough calculations) and it would seem that a 20A breaker is all I can add.

 

[Bob_00]

Not sure how this works with Canadian electrical code, but if each of those is a dedicated circuit, can you go to a 240V 15A breaker, and change the outlet to a NEMA 6-15 without neutral (white and black become the phase conductors)? That would double your available power at minimal cost (listed as 11 miles or range per hour, but that is without heating).
Gen 2 NEMA Adapters

Edit: Ninjaed by @Casmium

Unfortunately, neither is truely dedicated as there are other outlets on the circuits, they just get rarely used. I was more referring to the two chargers being on separate circuits and not splitting the available power.

 

[mongo]

Unfortunately, neither is truely dedicated as there are other outlets on the circuits, they just get rarely used. I was more referring to the two chargers being on separate circuits and not splitting the available power.

Ah, roger that.
If they are on different phases, there is a thing out there that combines 2 120s into a 240 feed. Not that i recomend it, but if you do run into winter problems, that would speed charging.

 

[X.l.r.8]

Right now you are working with a minimum. 120v is being converted to power with some loss in the conversion. 240 has similar losses but delivers twice the Kw. Therefore efficiency is improved. Remember your car is 400v not 120 or 240. 3A usage in your car is 1200w or 10A @120v. That’s only 5A @ 240v are you saying you only have room for a 20A 240 breaker. If so yes, it’s ridiculous not to put in a 20A 240v circuit in now. Because despite your commute only being 30km, in the thick of winter I’d rather drive it than walk it

 

[ewoodrick]

A solution is a solution. It seems that you have found a solution, so let it be.

If the socket is a duplex 120V 15A socket, replacing with a single 20A socket, as long as the breaker is 20A and the other plugs not really used, should be an easy and cheap solution. You'll need the Tesla adapters as well. That should definitely give you enough buffer for winter temperatures and a little charging.

Pretty much the only thing that would be different is that if you go on a long trip and come in empty, then there's a lot of charging to do, and while it isn't a problem means that it may take days to fill back up. So a quick stop by the Supercharger on the way in, not to fill the battery, but just add a buffer (10-15 minutes) should be an easy solution.

The number of times that I've needed a 240V 50A circuit is small, and for my wife, who charges off of 120V 15A, only a few times has she had to stop and charge on the way out.

 

[darkenergy]

Hi All,

We have 2 M3s (SR+ and LR AWD), and luckily our daily usage is low. 20-30km each a day, so the 120v handles our daily needs flawlessly thus far, but come winter, is this at all viable?

My wife has charged our Smart EV on 120V @12A at her office for the last three years. The travel distance is 54km each way and the power is sufficient to recover the power used for the 54km trip during rush "hour" <cough> Toronto. Charging with 120V @ 16A is definitely better. Slower trips are more energy efficient, but heating could be an issue if you want a shirtsleeve environment. Plus Ottawa definitely gets a bit colder which would impact you.

So "Should be fine", 240V is better and you may have to use your winter coat/hat/gloves in the worst case. However, I'll point out that our smart has a 17 kWh battery vs 75 kWh in the LR. You have a big buffer, and in a pinch there is the supercharger.

 

[bijan]

I have the physical space for a new breaker, it's more the load that is limiting me. With AC, electric dryer, oven, etc, I am at the limit of my loading (based on my rough calculations) and it would seem that a 20A breaker is all I can add.

I have 100A service and put in a 40A. So far so good, though I haven't had the AC on yet, since I got the car in October, but everything leads me to believe it should be fine based on my casual check of the load with Oven+Dryer+Car charging.

 

[TLej]

I have 100A service and put in a 40A. So far so good, though I haven't had the AC on yet, since I got the car in October, but everything leads me to believe it should be fine based on my casual check of the load with Oven+Dryer+Car charging.

@Bob_00 I have AC, dryer, oven, etc. on 100A panel with 40A for my car - no problems. I rationalized that the car is charging between 1-6 a.m. when none of those other loads are present, never had a problem in 3 1/2 years. Just set the car(s) to charge late at night/early morning, and if you have two cars maybe don't plan on charging them both on the same night, and you should be okay.

 

[duanra]

Well, I live in Montreal and work is 20km away. I am using 120v and there is no problem. It also depends if your car sit outside in -30c. Then it would charge slowly, but if you are in a garage it is a no brainer. In Summer or in temp above 5c my car, a midrange would ad 20% in 10 hours. That is about 100km. In freezinz temp it will go down to 10% in 10hrs. So about 50km ish...so it looks good enough for your commute right. Now you can always top up if needed at level 2 when needed. Just my 2 cents...

 

[jsmay311]

If you only drive 20-30 km/day and plug in every night, I think you'd be (almost entirely) fine.

My brother parked his M3 outdoors over this last Chicago winter with only a 120V 15A outlet available, and he only had to drive to a Supercharger twice when he let the charge get low (he didn't plug in every night for some reason) and temps dropped super low.

At extreme temps (I'm thinking like -5F / -20C or lower), 120V 15A might not provide enough power to actually charge the battery much, if at all. On the coldest night of last winter in Chicago I believe it got down -22F / -30C and I think my brother said he lost 1mph while "charging" overnight.

But... if:

(1) you don't drive very much on average
(2) you plug in every night
(3) you'd be ok driving to a nearby Supercharger on the (slim) off-chance that your battery is getting low during an extreme cold snap,

I think you'd be fine with only 120V 15A.

 

[bijan]

and if you have two cars maybe don't plan on charging them both on the same night, and you should be okay

On a separate note. The Tesla wall charger can be daisy chained (if you have two or more units) so you can charge two cars at the same time and it won't exceed whatever max amps you set it to.

 

[darkenergy]

@Bob_00 I have AC, dryer, oven, etc. on 100A panel with 40A for my car - no problems. I rationalized that the car is charging between 1-6 a.m. when none of those other loads are present, never had a problem in 3 1/2 years. Just set the car(s) to charge late at night/early morning, and if you have two cars maybe don't plan on charging them both on the same night, and you should be okay.

Same here. Been working fine for 5 years.

 

[bwalter]

Sounds like 120v is doable for you and you have options if you need it. I'd find 120v charging agonizingly slow, and it sounds like being parked outside in winter may push the limits. Having said that, it's not like you'll wake up one morning and find you have no range left. Instead you may your range is a bit less every morning than the morning before even though you charge as much as possible, in which case you can hit a level 2 or supercharger to get some range back. Just be aware that while L2 is much faster than L1, if you're low it will still be hours.

What about weekends though? Will you be driving more than on your commutes? Having a single 240v circuit, even at just 20A (5x faster than a 120v 15A based on Tesla's numbers) would give you a nice buffer and you could take turns on who would charge from it.

 

[Bob_00]

@Bob_00 I have AC, dryer, oven, etc. on 100A panel with 40A for my car - no problems. I rationalized that the car is charging between 1-6 a.m. when none of those other loads are present, never had a problem in 3 1/2 years. Just set the car(s) to charge late at night/early morning, and if you have two cars maybe don't plan on charging them both on the same night, and you should be okay.

I'm not worried about conflicting loads at all, but for permitting in Ontario, I understand you need a load calculation on your services, even if the intention is to charge outside of normal heavy load times (based on the discussions I've had with a couple electricians). Ultimately, I would not likely be charging during heavy use periods as I wouldn't be using AC in the winter, and it can be dialed down in summer if required, but unfortunately my anticipated usage and what the electrical code requires are not necessarily the same