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How to purge air for nitrogen

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Is there an actual nitrogen tank next to these inflation stations? How do you know if it is anything other than regular air?
The reddit comments here seem to indicate the ones that are nitrogen are put near the shop to access the nitrogen tank in the shop? Also supposedly they turn off when tire shop is off. If the self service stall still works after hours, most likely it is not supplied by the shop.

However the someone posted the model of the unit SC05SS and the manual (here is a working link) and it does not mention supporting a nitrogen supply or a nitrogen connection. It seems to just pull from free air and seems to be a standalone unit.
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DSC_0174-1024x1536-1.webp


There are nitrogen generators, but this one does not appear to be one (they are much bigger).

The model that is nitrogen compatible is the the PNT PRO
PNT-4_2.png

Bridgestone - Excel Tire Gauge - Excel Tire Gauge

You can see from this article, that is what is installed in the bays inside the Costco Tire Center:
oc8q68-b88780931z.120160820203759000gfnh4gbc.50.jpg

Best of Orange County 2016: Tire Dealer

So if you pull into a tire bay and have the tire shop fill it with their machines, they are most likely nitrogen. But it's unclear if the self service ones are nitrogen.

Are people mistakenly thinking the self service stations are also nitrogen, when they may not necessarily be? Although it says (nitrogen) in parenthesis in the front paragraph, the side says "Air"
costco-tire-inflation-station.jpg
 
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Since air is mostly nitrogen, they aren't wrong. :D

I didn't know there were nitrogen generators. I figured they just had a tank but that makes more sense.

If you use one of theses stand alone fillers and hear what sound like an air compressor, then I think you have your answer...
 
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The point of Nitrogen is that pure nitrogen has no moisture content. It's the moisture content that causes pressure fluctuations. Pure nitrogen is much more pressure stable. This also means that not purging the tires multiple times makes it pointless.

Never EVER pay someone for nitrogen. Flat guaranteed they'll screw it up. If nitrogen matters to you the only reliable way to fill your tires is buy a nitrogen tank and purge them yourself.

Spoken to you as a 18 year long track-rat with a degree in engineering and specialty in vehicle dynamics.
 
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So no difference between dry air and dry nitrogen? That's pretty much what I'd expect. Is a nitrogen generator just easier/cheaper/more readily available than a dry air system? Or just more cachet?

How does filling the tires with argon or xenon compare? Could be a whole new fad!
 
first of all, there are varying degrees of "pure" nitrogen you can get, and none of them are 100% n2. we used "ultra pure" n2 in our camera assemblies and still had a humidity issue since it was "only" 99.999% n2. do you think tire shops use ultra pure or better? no.
 
I'm with @Marsh25. First off: If there's oxygen and water vapor in the air in the tire, then the two of them will conspire to corrode metals and degrade rubber.

And, yeah, a N2 molecule is slightly larger than an O2 molecule, so the O2 will leak out a bit more. But, having said all that, Let's Get Real.

I want you guys to remember the Gas Equation: Pressure*Volume = number_of_moles * fudge_factor * Degrees in Kelvin. That equation works over a ridiculously wide range of temperatures, right down to the point where the gases in question start turning into liquids. Or get so hot they either burst the tire or turn into plasma.

So, suppose that the outside temperature ranges from 100F down to -20F, which would be OK for somebody living in New Hampshire or Maine over a year's time. Converting to Celsius, that would be a range of 37.7C down to -28.89C.

Do a little algebra: We get P1/P2 = T1/T2, where the temperatures are in Kelvin. Degrees Kelvin = Degrees Celsius+273.15. So, we get:
P1/P2 = (37.7+273.15)/(-28.89 + 273.15) = 1.27.

So, suppose it's 100F out. You put enough air into the tires to give you P1 = 45 psi. Now.. Don't Add Air. Make Up An Excuse Why The Tires Aren't Leaking. At -20F, the pressure in the tires will drop to 45/1.27 = 35.4psi.

Or, alternatively, suppose the outside temperature is -20F. Fill up the tires until they're at 45 psi. Wait for the outside temperature to hit 100F; and the tire pressure will be 45*1.27 = 57.2 psi. Whoops!

Now, go look at that CU article link. They filled up some $RANDOM tires to 30 psi. One year later, the nitrogen filled tires dropped 2.2 psi; the "normal air" filled tires dropped 3.5 psi.

Cute: But blow that for a lark. A real person would have to add air as it got colder because the tire would lose 10 psi as it chilled, more with a little leakage. And, if it got hotter, up the pressure would go by 10+ psi, so one would have to let air out. I check my tires once every couple of weeks or so, and before any lengthy trips. Just How Often Is One Supposed To Show Up At The Shop That Has A Nitrogen Tank?

So, why do race car drivers use dry nitrogen? Because they're blinking race cars. They running around the track at ridiculously high speeds, screetching wheels on the turns, braking like mad into the turns, leaving rubber marks behind as they accelerate, and flexing the sidewalls like there's no tomorrow. Those tires aren't just going to run hot; they're going to blister and die, and there's reasons why, when one watches a pro race, they're swapping out tires like there's no tomorrow.

The tires are barely lasting any length of time; but, if one blows out, That's That. What do you think is going to happen to rubber when it gets burns-the-fingers-hot and there's water and oxygen inside? The rubber's going to deteriorate, that's right.

But what about us normal drivers? I dunno about you guys, but I expect that my tires are going to last at least 50k miles and, no, I'm not pushing 100 mph.

I hate to tell you all this, but, except for the actual hot-rodders and track people, Nitrogen Has No Benefit.

As it happens, besides being an engineer, I'm an electrical engineer. And there's another crowd that's fallen for this kind of expensive hoo-ha: Audiophiles. And certain types of computer maniacs.

The next time you wander into Best Buy and see those audio cables that are gold or silver plated, and cost $2.50/ft and up, you're looking at another scam. Are there certain times when a silver plated surface helps with electromagnetic transmission? Sure - when one is at 200 MHz frequencies and up. Or playing around with microwaves. At anything below 100 kHz, crude, rude, basic copper, twisted pair speaker wire is more than good enough.

Sheesh.
 
Sure they were.
Earth’s atmosphere is made up of approximately 78 percent nitrogen and 21 percent oxygen. Air also has small amounts of other gases, too, such as carbon dioxide, neon, and hydrogen.



Sure.



As you should be.
I would not attempt this procedure without carefully lubing the muffler bearings first!



Have a drink. And a good meal.
Go to movies. Try hiking. Try craft beer brewing.
Once you get good at beer brewing, you will find an application where nitrogen actually matters.

Until then, take it easy!

HTH,
a
Wow, the sarcasm on this was next level. Thanks for that.
 
The proper process is to remove the tires, purge them of air, and then in a vacuum cannister wipe away the oxygen deposits from the inside of the tire and rim with alcohol swabs. Now fill with nitrogen while reducing the vacuum to keep the tire properly beaded on the rim. Every month at the most, wipe new oxygen deposits from the outside of the tire also with alcohol swabs. ;)
 
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I'm with @Marsh25. First off: If there's oxygen and water vapor in the air in the tire, then the two of them will conspire to corrode metals and degrade rubber.

And, yeah, a N2 molecule is slightly larger than an O2 molecule, so the O2 will leak out a bit more. But, having said all that, Let's Get Real.

I want you guys to remember the Gas Equation: Pressure*Volume = number_of_moles * fudge_factor * Degrees in Kelvin. That equation works over a ridiculously wide range of temperatures, right down to the point where the gases in question start turning into liquids. Or get so hot they either burst the tire or turn into plasma.

So, suppose that the outside temperature ranges from 100F down to -20F, which would be OK for somebody living in New Hampshire or Maine over a year's time. Converting to Celsius, that would be a range of 37.7C down to -28.89C.

Do a little algebra: We get P1/P2 = T1/T2, where the temperatures are in Kelvin. Degrees Kelvin = Degrees Celsius+273.15. So, we get:
P1/P2 = (37.7+273.15)/(-28.89 + 273.15) = 1.27.

So, suppose it's 100F out. You put enough air into the tires to give you P1 = 45 psi. Now.. Don't Add Air. Make Up An Excuse Why The Tires Aren't Leaking. At -20F, the pressure in the tires will drop to 45/1.27 = 35.4psi.

Or, alternatively, suppose the outside temperature is -20F. Fill up the tires until they're at 45 psi. Wait for the outside temperature to hit 100F; and the tire pressure will be 45*1.27 = 57.2 psi. Whoops!

Now, go look at that CU article link. They filled up some $RANDOM tires to 30 psi. One year later, the nitrogen filled tires dropped 2.2 psi; the "normal air" filled tires dropped 3.5 psi.

Cute: But blow that for a lark. A real person would have to add air as it got colder because the tire would lose 10 psi as it chilled, more with a little leakage. And, if it got hotter, up the pressure would go by 10+ psi, so one would have to let air out. I check my tires once every couple of weeks or so, and before any lengthy trips. Just How Often Is One Supposed To Show Up At The Shop That Has A Nitrogen Tank?

So, why do race car drivers use dry nitrogen? Because they're blinking race cars. They running around the track at ridiculously high speeds, screetching wheels on the turns, braking like mad into the turns, leaving rubber marks behind as they accelerate, and flexing the sidewalls like there's no tomorrow. Those tires aren't just going to run hot; they're going to blister and die, and there's reasons why, when one watches a pro race, they're swapping out tires like there's no tomorrow.

The tires are barely lasting any length of time; but, if one blows out, That's That. What do you think is going to happen to rubber when it gets burns-the-fingers-hot and there's water and oxygen inside? The rubber's going to deteriorate, that's right.

But what about us normal drivers? I dunno about you guys, but I expect that my tires are going to last at least 50k miles and, no, I'm not pushing 100 mph.

I hate to tell you all this, but, except for the actual hot-rodders and track people, Nitrogen Has No Benefit.

As it happens, besides being an engineer, I'm an electrical engineer. And there's another crowd that's fallen for this kind of expensive hoo-ha: Audiophiles. And certain types of computer maniacs.

The next time you wander into Best Buy and see those audio cables that are gold or silver plated, and cost $2.50/ft and up, you're looking at another scam. Are there certain times when a silver plated surface helps with electromagnetic transmission? Sure - when one is at 200 MHz frequencies and up. Or playing around with microwaves. At anything below 100 kHz, crude, rude, basic copper, twisted pair speaker wire is more than good enough.

Sheesh.
I kind of like the seasonality of the pressures. In Winter, I like my tires a little lower in pressure, to better float/grip on the snowy roads.

On highways and most roads nowadays, the roads are salted and you tend to get slush, which thinner higher-pressure tires will clear better. But I drive a lot of backroads when I go skiing and these smaller roads tend to have snow covering, even after plowing, so I like softer tires.
 
I just got new tires. They were not inflated with Nitrogen.
I have Costco membership and will be stopping by to inflate with nitrogen.
I keep reading that I should purge tires until 3psi and then inflate with nitrogen. I'm not feeling exactly confident about purging nearly 37 PSI out of the tire. Any risk doing any significant damage to the tire in the process if the car is parked and resting its full weight on the wheels/tires ?
Little scared about doing it this way.
EDIT: FYI, Costco in my area have installed tire inflation stations outside for everyone's access. So this doesn't require me asking them to do anything (I suspect they've gotten tons of inflation requests that they simply decided to put these up outside so that it becomes DIY).
Any suggestions ?
Inflating your tires with nitrogen is generally done to maintain more stable tire pressure, but purging air can be a concern. If you're worried about purging a significant amount of air, you could simply top off your tires with nitrogen at Costco without purging. It should still provide some of the benefits, even if not as optimal as a complete purge and fill. The risk of damage to the tire while parked and inflated is minimal.
 
I'm with @Marsh25. First off: If there's oxygen and water vapor in the air in the tire, then the two of them will conspire to corrode metals and degrade rubber.
I agree with everything you said, and on top of that, the above doesn't really make sense either. There is oxygen and water wapor on the  outside of the tire as well, plus salt in the winter. Why would the water vapor and the oxygen inside the tire suddenly become such a big issue? Personally, I've never seen a rim fall apart from metal fatigue, let alone from the inside.
That whole N2 hype is nothing but marketing nonsense, at least for cars.
 
I agree with everything you said, and on top of that, the above doesn't really make sense either. There is oxygen and water wapor on the  outside of the tire as well, plus salt in the winter. Why would the water vapor and the oxygen inside the tire suddenly become such a big issue? Personally, I've never seen a rim fall apart from metal fatigue, let alone from the inside.
That whole N2 hype is nothing but marketing nonsense, at least for cars.
Again, it's just about pressure stability. If you can get all the water out of the tire, then the pressure won't climb nearly as much as the tire heats. This matters to people going to the race track... and pretty much nobody else.
 
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