HW4 leaked by @greentheonly - new cameras coming?

[enemji]

The whole reason Elon/Tesla styaed away from forward facing cameras was because of the inability to keep it clean. Now with forward facing cameras it will become the owners problem to keep it clean

 

[stopcrazypp]

But Tesla already has front fender cameras!

So maybe these are forward fender or forward facing cameras?

Model 3 Owner's Manual | Tesla

Learn about Autopilot and its specifications.

www.tesla.com

See my prediction previously. Yes, I'm talking about forward/side facing fender cameras. Back then I suggested it as a way to allow a pathway to easy retrofits. Basically instead of only having one rear facing camera on the fender unit, simply add another one facing the front or side. If they use a multiplexing chip in the camera unit, they wouldn't even have to change the wiring harness (as it can carry both signals). It appears however they instead decided to use two signal cables (I imagine there is no separate splitter unit that feeds the HW4).

Note the HW4 leak calls out 4 FF cameras (we are guessing it means Front Fender). With two labeled as rear and two as side. Currently there are only two rear facing.

 

[helvio]

notateslaapp: "Confirmed: Tesla HW4 Will Not Include New Cameras or Updated Placements"

Confirmed: Tesla HW4 Will Not Include New Cameras Initially

HW4 is closer to release after a confirmed spotting. New evidence includes details about the new cameras and clarifies speculation about possible changes to cam

www.notateslaapp.com

Seems like HW4 is mostly designed to accommodate other vehicles (Semi?) that require more cameras.
All the "woe is me" was, indeed, premature.

 

[Knightshade]

notateslaapp: "Confirmed: Tesla HW4 Will Not Include New Cameras or Updated Placements"

Confirmed: Tesla HW4 Will Not Include New Cameras Initially

HW4 is closer to release after a confirmed spotting. New evidence includes details about the new cameras and clarifies speculation about possible changes to cam

www.notateslaapp.com

Seems like HW4 is mostly designed to accommodate other vehicles (Semi?) that require more cameras.
All the "woe is me" was, indeed, premature.

I think if it's as minor a change as you suggest there'd be no "upgrading existing fleet would be cost prohibitive" statement from Elon.

If it was JUST swapping different cams into existing locations- that's trivial cost-wise...(and something Tesla has already done for HW2.0 owners whose cameras were insufficient for even the current FSDb)

 

[helvio]

I think if it's as minor a change as you suggest there'd be no "upgrading existing fleet would be cost prohibitive" statement from Elon.

If it was JUST swapping different cams into existing locations- that's trivial cost-wise...(and something Tesla has already done for HW2.0 owners whose cameras were insufficient for even the current FSDb)

I suggest what? What is your point?
The computer FORM FACTOR is prohibitive, according to Elon / Green. I read nothing else as being a reason.

HW2 was (IIRC) upgraded to HW3 in order to fulfill the promise of self driving capable hardware. Knowing that, HW3 was probably created in the same form factor as HW2 for an easier upgrade path.

So, again, what is your point?

 

[Bladerskb]

notateslaapp: "Confirmed: Tesla HW4 Will Not Include New Cameras or Updated Placements"

Confirmed: Tesla HW4 Will Not Include New Cameras Initially

HW4 is closer to release after a confirmed spotting. New evidence includes details about the new cameras and clarifies speculation about possible changes to cam

www.notateslaapp.com

Seems like HW4 is mostly designed to accommodate other vehicles (Semi?) that require more cameras.
All the "woe is me" was, indeed, premature.

Anyone know the FOV of the current repeater cameras?
It looks like an acute angle to me (around 60 deg FOV).
I say this because in the video, what that guy is saying with the new pictures could be a match.
Meaning they are now using something similar to Mobileye.
Mobileye uses a 100 degrees outward facing repeater camera.

 

[Knightshade]

I suggest what? What is your point?

You suggest folks concerned there won't be retrofits had premature concern.

And what was yours?

The computer FORM FACTOR is prohibitive, according to Elon

Elon does not mention computer form factor at all, that appears to be your guess as to his reason but there appear to be a number of other, better, possible reasons. Tesla entirely controls the form factor, if that was the ONLY reason it would've been trivial for them to solve it in initial design engineering.

it is the cost and difficulty of retrofitting Hardware 3 with Hardware 4 is quite significant. So it would not be, I think, economically feasible to do so.

Do you have a different quote from him that supports your claim the computer FF is the only reason for that?

HW2 was (IIRC) upgraded to HW3 in order to fulfill the promise of self driving capable hardware. Knowing that, HW3 was probably created in the same form factor as HW2 for an easier upgrade path.

Given we still have considerable evidence HW3 will never be capable of that it seems odd they wouldn't have done the same with HW4 unless they'd found there were OTHER cost prohibitive reasons such an upgrade wouldn't be possible.

Which would be consistent with what Elon said.

So, again, what is your point?

To draw the best conclusions we have with available evidence.

Again what's YOURS if it's not that?

 

[helvio]

You suggest folks concerned there won't be retrofits had premature concern.

Wrong. See post #2 on this thread.

Elon does not mention computer form factor at all, that appears to be your guess as to his reason but there appear to be a number of other, better, possible reasons. Tesla entirely controls the form factor, if that was the ONLY reason it would've been trivial for them to solve it in initial design engineering.

Way to go cutting off my quote to your soul's desires. Elon was vague, Green was specific. Still, form factor if you interpret.

Do you have a different quote from him that supports your claim the computer FF is the only reason for that?

"The first is that there will be no significant difference between how HW3 and HW4 performs in terms of Full Self-Driving"

Given we still have considerable evidence HW3 will never be capable of that it seems odd they wouldn't have done the same with HW4 unless they'd found there were OTHER cost prohibitive reasons such an upgrade wouldn't be possible.

What evidence? What do you know that Tesla doesn't?

 

[Knightshade]

Wrong. See post #2 on this thread.

How bout we see the one of yours I actually replied to-where you wrote exactly what I said you did?

My post-

You suggest folks concerned there won't be retrofits had premature concern.

In response to your post- doing exactly that:

All the "woe is me" was, indeed, premature.

Way to go cutting off my quote to your soul's desires. Elon was vague, Green was specific.

So you are saying we can rely on Green when it comes to info about the driving computer? Great, that'll be important here in a minute!

Still, form factor if you interpret.

Or....more than just that if you go by the fullness of everything both Elon and Green actually said... (for example MCU3 dependency, new radar, new connections and more redundant wiring, etc)

What evidence? What do you know that Tesla doesn't?

Green has posted ample evidence of HW3 not having nearly enough compute to do L4-- let alone do it with redundant compute nodes.

Or is Green only a valid source when he agrees with you, and not when he directly disagrees?

 

[helvio]

(moderator edit)

I think if it's as minor a change as you suggest there'd be no "upgrading existing fleet would be cost prohibitive" statement from Elon.

I did not suggest it's a minor change. I did not suggest a thing. I linked to an article that says there's no additional cameras / different camera placements. (moderator edit)

Or....more than just that if you go by the fullness of everything both Elon and Green actually said... (for example MCU3 dependency, new radar, new connections and more redundant wiring, etc)

Yeah yeah... We all know that, after all you can't just make a 2016 model a 2020 model, of any car. I'm talking about (probably) the biggest factor which, alone, makes it not an option for Tesla. There are different cameras, some sort of heating elements, wiring, radar too, and it's somewhat controversial. But form factor alone does it. My opinion.

Green has posted ample evidence of HW3 not having nearly enough compute to do L4-- let alone do it with redundant compute nodes.

Or is Green only a valid source when he agrees with you, and not when he directly disagrees?

Glad you said that. I agree with him on the physical evidence that HW4 is not retrofittable due to form factor. Kind of gives a reason to Elon's denial on retrofitting. So yeah, I agree with him there.
I do disagree, however, on his compute power claims/findings for FSD / L3 / L4 / L5 (call it what you want). I don't know more than him, but I also know that he knows less than Tesla engineering. But in my humble opinion, 2 stacks are running concurrently on the FSD computer, meaning there are a lot of wasted compute resources that, once reclaimed (single stack), could amplify the perceived limits of the hardware. But, what do we know? Maybe he's right. Maybe I'm right. Maybe there's a third option, and we're both wrong.

 

[Knightshade]

(moderator edit)

…you cite Green as one of your sources.

And Green tells us there's not enough computer for HW3 to do FSD....but I guess we come to that next-

Glad you said that. I agree with him on the physical evidence that HW4 is not retrofittable due to form factor. Kind of gives a reason to Elon's denial on retrofitting. So yeah, I agree with him there.
I do disagree, however, on his compute power claims/findings for FSD

Thanks for confirming what I said... you consider him reliable when he agrees with you, and not when he doesn't. Odd choice, espectially when the compute/code part is more his area of expertise (where you don't believe him) than the manufacturing/assembly part which is not his area of expertise, but you DO trust him on that... (well, not entirely-- since he lists a NUMBER of reasons you can't retrofit- not just the "size of the computer" which would be the EASIEST part for Tesla to make refittable if they wished to)

 

[stopcrazypp]

Anyone know the FOV of the current repeater cameras?
It looks like an acute angle to me (around 60 deg FOV).
I say this because in the video, what that guy is saying with the new pictures could be a match.
Meaning they are now using something similar to Mobileye.
Mobileye uses a 100 degrees outward facing repeater camera.

From diagrams when they first came out, the FOV of repeater cams measures ~75 degrees (presumably horizontal FOV, diagonal would be different):

AP2.0 Cameras: Capabilities and Limitations?

Do you remember these S and X mules? @FredLambert :eek::p;) I'm fairly sure this one picture is a Bosch Test mule using a pre-AP1 Model S85, where it was outfitted with a Bosch system unrelated to anything Tesla is/was doing. Not sure where the other pictures came from, but they could be...

teslamotorsclub.com

 

[enemji]

Anyone know the FOV of the current repeater cameras?
It looks like an acute angle to me (around 60 deg FOV).
I say this because in the video, what that guy is saying with the new pictures could be a match.
Meaning they are now using something similar to Mobileye.
Mobileye uses a 100 degrees outward facing repeater camera.

Autopilot

All new Tesla vehicles are equipped with the hardware needed for Autopilot and Full Self-Driving capability features, designed to improve functionality over time.

www.tesla.com

Wide, Main and Narrow Forward Cameras​

Three cameras mounted behind the windshield provide broad visibility in front of the car, and focused, long-range detection of distant objects.

Wide

120 degree fisheye lens captures traffic lights, obstacles cutting into the path of travel and objects at close range. Particularly useful in urban, low speed maneuvering.

Main

Covers a broad spectrum of use cases.

Narrow

Provides a focused, long-range view of distant features. Useful in high-speed operation.

Forward Looking Side Cameras​

90 degree redundant forward looking side cameras look for cars unexpectedly entering your lane on the highway and provide additional safety when entering intersections with limited visibility.

 

[EVNow]

If it was JUST swapping different cams into existing locations- that's trivial cost-wise...

Not sure about that.

First the cost of HW4 computer + all the new cameras. Then the service time (1 /2 hours ?). Then the rental cost.

Not to talk about all the extra work (and delays) on the already over-extended service centers.

At $1,000 a car, that would be 300,000x1,000 = 300,000,000 i.e. $300M. Won't call that trivial.

 

[helvio]

Not sure about that.

First the cost of HW4 computer + all the new cameras. Then the service time (1 /2 hours ?). Then the rental cost.

Not to talk about all the extra work (and delays) on the already over-extended service centers.

At $1,000 a car, that would be 300,000x1,000 = 300,000,000 i.e. $300M. Won't call that trivial.

Beware: he’s right; you’re wrong.

 

[zoomer0056]

notateslaapp: "Confirmed: Tesla HW4 Will Not Include New Cameras or Updated Placements"

Confirmed: Tesla HW4 Will Not Include New Cameras Initially

HW4 is closer to release after a confirmed spotting. New evidence includes details about the new cameras and clarifies speculation about possible changes to cam

www.notateslaapp.com

Seems like HW4 is mostly designed to accommodate other vehicles (Semi?) that require more cameras.
All the "woe is me" was, indeed, premature.

The article contradicts its title. Title says no new cameras with HW4 but then goes on to say new cameras have been spotted. All of this is pre-fake news. Before "it" comes out is all speculation. Believe only when you see it.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Autopilot

All new Tesla vehicles are equipped with the hardware needed for Autopilot and Full Self-Driving capability features, designed to improve functionality over time.

www.tesla.com

Wide, Main and Narrow Forward Cameras​

Three cameras mounted behind the windshield provide broad visibility in front of the car, and focused, long-range detection of distant objects.

Wide

120 degree fisheye lens captures traffic lights, obstacles cutting into the path of travel and objects at close range. Particularly useful in urban, low speed maneuvering.

Main

Covers a broad spectrum of use cases.

Narrow

Provides a focused, long-range view of distant features. Useful in high-speed operation.

Forward Looking Side Cameras​

90 degree redundant forward looking side cameras look for cars unexpectedly entering your lane on the highway and provide additional safety when entering intersections with limited visibility.

The website only calls out the FOV of the B-pillar cameras as per section you quoted at 90 degrees. He's asking instead about repeaters, which the website does not specify. As I mentioned above, I did a calculation based on the diagram and came out to ~75 degrees FOV for those. I can possibly verify on my car when I have the chance, but it's harder for the rear repeaters given they go over the bodywork (so marking the edge of that is more difficult)

 

[stopcrazypp]

The article contradicts its title. Title says no new cameras with HW4 but then goes on to say new cameras have been spotted. All of this is pre-fake news. Before "it" comes out is all speculation. Believe only when you see it.

I think the title meant no new additional camera positions. It is obvious there are different camera units, but they are in the same positions and there is no additional new position or even a change in position (like for example the rumor of moving some to headlights).

 

[Knightshade]

Not sure about that.

First the cost of HW4 computer + all the new cameras. Then the service time (1 /2 hours ?). Then the rental cost.

Not to talk about all the extra work (and delays) on the already over-extended service centers.

At $1,000 a car, that would be 300,000x1,000 = 300,000,000 i.e. $300M. Won't call that trivial.

what rental? First it's likely doable with mobile service... but even if it was not, I haven't been offered a loaner in years-- just Uber credits.

But $1000 a car IS trivial when you consider the fact you have a couple million Teslas on the road that might never buy FSD for $15,000 if there ends up being a development dead end.... but might well buy it for $15,000 (or more) if HW4 FSD eventually works a lot better. Every one of those you sell to, even with a 1k "cost" for HW upgrade, is $14,000 in profit per person.

That's apart from the public image benefits of not cutting off literally all your current customers from those improvements once they reach the separation point from HW3, and avoiding lawsuits from early adopters who aren't getting what they were promised which no upgrade plus feature divergence would be solid evidence of.


Course a few folks have suggested maybe HW4 is more like 3.5 and they're not going to significantly diverge code.... I suppose I could see a scenario like that where there's an eventual HW5 that IS designed to be retroable into all HW2+ cars and that's the one FSD buyers of older vehicles will get upgraded to that actually delivers L4 driving.

 

[helvio]

The article contradicts its title. Title says no new cameras with HW4 but then goes on to say new cameras have been spotted. All of this is pre-fake news. Before "it" comes out is all speculation. Believe only when you see it.

I’m not sure I follow. The main discussion is additional cameras in new places, referred to as new cameras. If you mean new as in higher res, or manufactured more recently, then yes I agree.

Otherwise I’d like you to please expand on that because I’m interested on how you took the news in the article.