JRP3
Hyperactive Member
It shows how completely irrational some people can be, not surprising you don't see that...
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Hydrogen vs. Battery
- Thread starter siry
- Start date
It shows how completely irrational some people can be, not surprising you don't see that...
Good lord, there are people arguing over the merits of Hydrogen car.
There is no way I will drive 40+ miles to any filling station. Heck not even 5 miles. I would rather fill it every night in my garage with an EV connector.
There is no way I will drive 40+ miles to any filling station. Heck not even 5 miles. I would rather fill it every night in my garage with an EV connector.
nwdiver
Well-Known Member
Also no way I'm going to drive something that consumes >700wh/mi unless we have A LOT of surplus clean energy....
nwdiver
Well-Known Member
When I plug in at home.... why should I care if it takes 3 minutes or 10 hours for my car to charge?
..... it's not even worth driving 40' to charge faster.... let alone 40 miles.
Here's my criteria for when FCEVs will make slightly less sense than BEVs...
- >90% of H2 (ALL H2) is sourced from H2O NOT CH4
- Connected to #1; Electrolysis is cheap enough to use Surplus Wind or Solar (Operate at a CF <20%)
- Connected to #2; >50% of H2 is sourced from SURPLUS wind or solar
- Home electrolysis is a thing OR it's a PHEV
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Curious George
Member
This is a strange analogy. Criminals want to avoid prison, not go into them. They also don't like the prison food. Just visit Alcatraz and you will know how they revolted against bad meals. I am not getting this analogy at all!
Anyone doubting value of fast charging, take a peek at this thread here to see people's woes when their supercharging is throttled.
Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software
I haven't heard any electric car company advertising slower charging for longer pit stops! Elon Musk promises V3 supercharger with faster charging. Porsche is promising 15 minute charging for its Taycan. I think, those of you not understanding the value of fast fill ups are a small fraction in the real world.
Tesla, a company that started in 2004, sold only 1900 Tesla Roadster from 2008-2012, its first gen car. First showed it off in 2006. I don'tr remember, but I think it was priced at over $200k. Mind you, battery powered car is nothing new. I had a few of those as a kid.So, Toyota, one of the world’s largest auto manufacturer, managed to sell 3000 hydrogen powered vehicles and a lowly Silicon Valley start up named Tesla, according to Wikipedia, has managed to sell 720,000 EVs. Ok, game over. Lock this 170 page thread.
Monthly Plug-In EV Sales Scorecard: Historical Charts
Toyota showed its first generation (also first of its commercial fuel cell sedan) Mirai in 2014 when California didn't have a single retail hydrogen station. It was priced at $57500. By 2017, it had sold 5300 Mirai worldwide.
Toyota Mirai - Wikipedia
By contrast, Volt sold > 23000 in 2012. Now it is dead.
Long story short, it's a 5K marathon. It is 2012 for hydrogen cars.
Do not despair! Hydrogen cars will grow in sales soon in your area too!
Write to your lawmakers to start off with a few H2 stations around Seattle. Then, you too can experience the joy of driving emission free and filling up in 3 minutes while on the go. You don't have to stay home 9 a.m to 12 p.m. with your car plugged into the grid to absorb the excess solar power. Leave that to the electrolyzers.
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Ya, I will definitely hold my breath for that. NOT! Keep spouting that fantasy, maybe you even believe it (which I doubt because you’re probably a paid fossil fuel flunky). My 230 mi trips to Seattle will never be possible using hydrogen in my lifetime. Eight years ago I was talking to people about EVs and they said, no thanks, they would wait for hydrogen. Yup, still waiting. Oh, and as for charging EVs only at certain hours, maybe down in California, but not here surrounded by 10-20 hydroelectric dams that can hold back the water all night, and open up generating power just when needed. Yup, been doing that for nearly a century, including balancing out California’s use. I think we’ll be just fine.
WannabeOwner
Well-Known Member
Me too. But plenty of people are using Supercharger (exclusively) because they got free Supercharging with the car.
I do 30,000 miles a year, and charge "whilst I sleep at night" or "while I am at work". Call it 3 miles / kWh so 10,000 kWh p.a. and assuming 100kW average at Supercharger then I would have to park&charge for 100 hours a year ... 2 hours a week.
I value my time more than that, clearly other people don't ...
Supermarket Petrol in UK is a penny or two cheaper than forecourt prices. Always a queue of cars waiting for pumps ... so probably 5, maybe 10, extra minutes each time they fill up. Once a week maybe? that's an extra 8 hours a year
"There's nowt so queer as folk"
The Mirai got nipped in the bud by Tesla. No, not this Tesla but Alexander Tesla when he found a way to produce cheap AC electricity that can be carried long distance.
Now it is in everybody's home and for many people it is in their garage or close to the driveway. So >70% of potential car owners have access to at least 120V in their home and a significant percentage can upgrade to 240V. And places like UK and India already operate on 240V AC.
So when I have an equivalent of petrol station or Hydrogen station at home with EV why would I go searching for one with another car. You can earn more money but can't earn more time from God. So why not use that sensibly with home charging. That is why free superchargers don't have much appeal to me. I have one about 10 minutes away but no way would I fight traffic and sit 25-45 mins just to charge for free.
Unlike California and a few other cities / states most of us pay sensible rates for electricity, day or night. Usually < 0.15 cents per kWh. So this waiting only until night to comes charge does not apply to most of us. In any case most of sleep and not drive at night and hence it makes sense to charge at night
The Volt is dead for multiple reasons, an important one being batteries becoming better and cheaper, which enabled GM to make the Bolt instead.
You were ascribing intent to someone else's inconvenience, and doing so in a way that is favorable to your argument. What about those who got into a lease, were told hydrogen filling stations would be more plentiful, and have found that the stations closest to them have no fuel? They're trapped (imprisoned) in a vehicle that is inconvenient and inefficient, and causes them to sink time and energy into driving to fuel them up. But sure, let's just say they're doing it because they love the cars so much. That seems fair to them.
I do wish people would check facts instead of posting falsehoods. Tesla produced and sold 2400 roadsters worldwide. The base price started out at $98k but Elon realized that that price was unsustainable so put it up to $112k. The more expensive Roadster Sport came out too, but I don't have one so I don't remember how much that cost, but certainly nothing like $200k.Tesla, a company that started in 2004, sold only 1900 Tesla Roadster from 2008-2012, its first gen car. First showed it off in 2006. I don'tr remember, but I think it was priced at over $200k. Mind you, battery powered car is nothing new. I had a few of those as a kid.
Monthly Plug-In EV Sales Scorecard: Historical Charts
Alexander, brother of the famous Ronny Tesla?
mblakele
FSD Beta (99)
Both pioneering inventors. But at the same time let's not fail to honor the memories of Sir Arthur Hydrogen and Lord Electron.
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants." — Isaac Newton (inventor of the Fig Newton)
So, Toyota, one of the world’s largest auto manufacturer, managed to sell 3000 hydrogen powered vehicles and a lowly Silicon Valley start up named Tesla, according to Wikipedia, has managed to sell 720,000 EVs. Ok, game over. Lock this 170 page thread.
Tesla is already more than half a million? When did that happen?
December 2018 apparently. I thought there would be more fanfare.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Tesla,_Inc.
nwdiver
Well-Known Member
Well... to be fair... I don't think Tesla would let you out of your lease if electricity was no longer available. Also no one would care as they would have MUCH MUCH bigger problems because electricity is no longer available...
I actually feel pretty bad for the owners in these groups. Many of them were convinced they were doing the right thing, and were led to believe by Toyota that their fueling situation would only get better, not worse. Obviously EVs have a lot of options, so it's hard to create a similar comparison, but if someone frequently traveled up and down I-5 and Tesla turned all of the Superchargers off, it would be similarly frustrating for those owners.
It appears Toyota is currently approving $50/day for rental cars. That on top of the $15k fuel card.. this is a pricey experiment for Toyota.
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