Hydrogen vs. Battery

[JohnSnowNW]

I believe I already pointed out at that time, the big flaw in it. That link says :
"For electric vehicles, the calculation includes both power plant emissions and emissions from the production of coal, natural gas and other fuels power plants use."

So seems like it does not include the CO2-e of the battery pack. Also need to check their other assumptions.

It's also not taking into account the "CO2" from manufacturing components for the ICEV either. Nor does it take into account the increased emissions of ICEVs over time...or factor in things like motor oil usage.

And the charging infrastructure needs to be developed before EVs can be sold in large numbers, right? Hybrids can be sold in large numbers today. Hybrids are solution for today. EVs are a partial solution for tomorrow.

This is an interesting statement for someone who is hawking FCEVs...

 

[mblakele]

Those posting FUD say that UCS doesn't include battery pack manufacturing emissions in their calculations. False. And they know better, but they post FUD anyway.

Cleaner Cars from Cradle to Grave

But what are the global warming emissions of electric cars on a life cycle basis—from the manufacturing of the vehicle’s body and battery to its ultimate disposal and reuse? To answer this, the Union of Concerned Scientists undertook a comprehensive, two-year review of the climate emissions from vehicle production, operation, and disposal. We found that battery electric cars generate half the emissions of the average comparable gasoline car, even when pollution from battery manufacturing is accounted for.​

 

[nwdiver]

Those posting FUD say that UCS doesn't include battery pack manufacturing emissions in their calculations. False. And they know better, but they post FUD anyway.

Well... in their defense... can YOU think if a better way to sell Hybrids in this day and age? I sure can't... not that I would want to

 

[FactsBot]

And as I've said.... importing LNG would be cheaper, cleaner and more efficient. The only downside is greenwashing is harder......

H2 from electrolysis is great.... sell it as H2 and import LNG. Trade 100GWh of H2 for 150GWh of LNG... the buyer uses the H2 to make NH4 you use the LNG to make electricity to charge BEVs. Lower overall emissions and everyone wins.... When you can't sell anymore H2 because you're making enough to fill demand THEN and ONLY THEN will it make sense as a fuel.... for ROCKETS... use the H2 to make pure CH4 for rockets; Once that need is filled then it will make sense to make aviation fuel; THEN cars.....

They are well aware of the issues. But they also have a goal:

"Japan’s target is to cut greenhouse gas emissions by 26% by FY 2030 from the FY 2013 level (or by 25.4% from FY 2005). In addition, in accordance with the Paris Agreement, Japan will attempt to cut greenhouse gas emissions by 80% by 2050."

 

[FactsBot]

So in <5 years even India will be in a position where BEVs could be charged with >90% wind or solar even if the grid is >50% coal. Because.... and I'm getting really sick of repeating this....

EVs DO NOT USE GRID MIX!!!!!!

Are they getting artisan, hand picked green electrons? How do you enforce BEVs to get charged only when green energy is available?

 

[nwdiver]

Are they getting artisan, hand picked green electrons? How do you enforce BEVs to get charged when green energy is available?

.... TOU.... if electricity is $0.30/kWh when the grid is dirty, $0.20/kWh when the grid is clean and $0.05/kWh if you allow the grid operator to control the time/rate of your charging.... which do you think people will choose?

They are well aware of the issues. But they also have a goal:

"Japan’s target is to cut greenhouse gas emissions by 26% by FY 2030 from the FY 2013 level (or by 25.4% from FY 2005). In addition, in accordance with the Paris Agreement, Japan will attempt to cut greenhouse gas emissions by 80% by 2050."

And much like the US most of that will be done with CH4, wind and solar. Talk of H2 being a solution is industrial greenwashing.

 

[mblakele]

Are they getting artisan, hand picked green electrons? How do you enforce BEVs to get charged only when green energy is available?

I don't know what happens in your universe. In mine, my EV does it by paying an extra penny per kWh to PCE. Then PCE invests in renewable generation projects, comprised of solar and wind: https://www.peninsulacleanenergy.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/PCE_Green-e_PTC_v2_ContentLabel.pdf

 

[FactsBot]

.... TOU.... if electricity is $0.30/kWh when the grid is dirty, $0.20/kWh when the grid is clean and $0.05/kWh if you allow the grid operator to control the time/rate of your charging.... which do you think people will choose?



And much like the US most of that will be done with CH4, wind and solar. Talk of H2 being a solution is industrial greenwashing.

People will pick the time when they have a chance to charge. If there is no charger at work, they can't utilize sunlight. Wind is seasonal.

 

[FactsBot]

I don't know what happens in your universe. In mine, my EV does it by paying an extra penny per kWh to PCE. Then PCE invests in renewable generation projects, comprised of solar and wind: https://www.peninsulacleanenergy.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/PCE_Green-e_PTC_v2_ContentLabel.pdf

You are supporting these green sources which is great. But your electricity isn't any cleaner than the neighbor's.

 

[nwdiver]

People will pick the time when they have a chance to charge. If there is no charger at work, they can't utilize sunlight. Wind is seasonal.

All Teslas are connected to the internet. Most other EVs likely will be soon too. OR the EVSE is connected. You plug in where you're at... home or work. When there's surplus wind or solar your car is signaled to start charging and you get cheap, free or possibly paid for buffering the grid. This isn't complicated or expensive. Curtailment events are going to increase exponentially in the coming years... this is the most cost effective way to reduce the amount of clean energy that is wasted.

 

[mblakele]

You are supporting these green sources which is great. But your electricity isn't any cleaner than the neighbor's.

But it is: I self-consume solar power from my rooftop, too.

Anyway my neighbors already have "50% renewable and 90% greenhouse gas free energy" according to PCE.

 

[FutureShock]

Hydrogen Fanboiz: "Gosh, if we just try hard enough, we can ARGUE hydrogen into being a thing!!"

Rest of the World: "Uhh, nope." . *drives off in a BEV*
.

 

[FactsBot]

Hydrogen Fanboiz: "Gosh, if we just try hard enough, we can ARGUE hydrogen into being a thing!!"

Rest of the World: "Uhh, nope." . *drives off in a BEV*
.

Not a H2 fanboy and I appreciate BEVs. But there is too much FUD about H2 here. Coming from Elon. Marketing trick.

 

[mblakele]

Not a H2 fanboy and I appreciate BEVs. But there is too much FUD about H2 here. Coming from Elon. Marketing trick.

Old trick: when someone calls you on your BS, accuse them of what you're doing.

For anyone willing to look at the facts and do the math, it's clear that HFCEV aren't viable passenger vehicles, while BEV are. Or just look at sales.

 

[nwdiver]

Not a H2 fanboy and I appreciate BEVs. But there is too much FUD about H2 here. Coming from Elon. Marketing trick.

??? Which part is H2 FUD ? That they use >2x as much primary energy? That we need H2 for A LOT of other things? That >90% of H2 comes from fools fuel? That operating costs of a FCEV are >4x higher than for a BEV? If it's true and relevant it's not FUD.

 

[FactsBot]

Old trick: when someone calls you on your BS, accuse them of what you're doing.

For anyone willing to look at the facts and do the math, it's clear that HFCEV aren't viable passenger vehicles, while BEV are. Or just look at sales.

I provided plans from Japan, not my opinion. You call it BS, your choice. I think the BS is the conspiracy theory about FCells. You believe in it, your choice.

 

[mblakele]

??? Which part is H2 FUD ? That they use >2x as much primary energy? That we need H2 for A LOT of other things? That >90% of H2 comes from fools fuel? That operating costs of a FCEV are >4x higher than for a BEV? If it's true and relevant it's not FUD.

Indeed. H2 FUD would be more along the lines of "But I'm skeered of H2. What about when the Hindenburg blew up?"

 

[nwdiver]

I provided plans from Japan, not my opinion. You call it BS, your choice. I think the BS is the conspiracy theory about FCells. You believe in it, your choice.

It's the only plausible explanation since hydrogen as a storage medium only makes sense if you ignore ~all the alternatives, math and physics....

 

[mblakele]

Japan is in an interesting position for energy policy. But H2 isn't necessarily the answer. After all Japan has a lot of potential energy from renewables: geothermal, as well as the usual suspects of solar, wind, and hydro. Here's a relatively modest proposal that doesn't rely on H2 — from way back in 2011, so we could probably do better today.

Can Japan Go 100% Renewable by 2050? - Our World

 

[FactsBot]

??? Which part is H2 FUD ? That they use >2x as much primary energy? That we need H2 for A LOT of other things? That >90% of H2 comes from fools fuel? That operating costs of a FCEV are >4x higher than for a BEV? If it's true and relevant it's not FUD.

BEVs were laughed at for 100 years, yet they became a thing.

Fcells could be a zero emission alternative for those who can't charge at home and for renewable energy storage which batteries can't provide in scale as of now. The only drawback would be the efficiency, prices come down with scale.