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Hydrogen vs. Battery

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New day, same old FUD. It isn't as if it hasn't been debunked here multiple times, either.

New Data Show Electric Vehicles Continue to Get Cleaner

2016 data:


And here's a map that specifically uses the Ioniq BEV as an example (from that same link):

UCS.png


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One aspect of this thermodynamic nightmare I can't find an answer to is 'boil-off'. According to NASA they lose ~50% of the Hydrogen they purchase to 'boil-off'. They have refrigeration methods that can reduce this to ~0 but that increases the energy use another ~20%...

So... how much more H2 is lost due to boil off or what's the cost of refrigeration. The well-to-wheels calcs I've seen assume gaseous H2 not liquid delivery and there's a ~30% benefit vs fools fuel. Once you start using liquid for delivery you're probably going to be better off just burning gasoline....
 
It's so funny to see so much Toyota bashing here.

Ah.... I think I understand your position now.... you must be somehow trapped in 2005.... Here in 2019 we have BEVs that can charge to 80% in ~30 minutes and go >350 miles on a charge. Yeah... in 2019 H2 powered cars don't make any sense and Toyota sucks.

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Pssst: The St. Louis Cardinals win the 2006 World Series. That one's free.... wire me $100k and I'll tell you who wins the 2007 World Series :)
 
EV is only zero emission if we ignore the extra CO2-e of the batteries and the source of the electrons.
The EVs also force more power generation, that hybrids don't.
Case 1: You put up solar panels (if they work in your area) and drive an EV. You are taking away the clean solar power that could reduce dirty power in someone else's house.
Case 2: You put up solar panels (if it works) and drive a Toyota hybrid. You cleaned up the grid, and also reduced your own car's CO2 emission by half. Also, you avoided the extra CO2-e of the big battery.
I am not a strong opponent to this argument since I made it for years. However, I can think of a couple of good reasons why it is not a complete analysis.

For one, EV ownership drives clean energy production. People who own EVs want them fueled with clean energy and they realize that home PV becomes a much more financially attractive proposition.
Second, EV ownership adds tremendous value to the ability of grid to increase its clean energy fraction by adding a time insensitive sink.
 
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.... which BEVs can help with but NOT H2 until the cost of electrolysis drops by ~90%. BEV charging can be controlled to match wind or solar availability but electrolysis is FAR too expensive to operate like that. No one is going to spend $200M on a 3k kg/day electrolysis plant and reduce output 80% to match wind or solar surpluses.... Charging a BEV <

HVDC is going to be a FAR cheaper and FAR more efficient option for Japan than shipping energy as Hydrogen......

A single HVDC line can deliver >200GWh/day while a H2 Super-tanker would only carry ~10GWh of energy.

We're still making ~10B kg/yr of H2 from CH4 using steam reforming... until we're using H2O instead of CH4 to fill our H2 requirements how does it make ANY sense to use it in cars???? Using electricity in BEVs makes sense even though we still use fools fuel to make electricity because BEVs are efficient enough that total energy use DECLINES ~50%. That's not true with FCEVs. Best case is break even and more likely it's actually LESS efficient.


In 2010 Japan was 80% reliant on imported energy. They were dedicated to make progress toward decreasing this number and increasing the share of zero emission sources so they were planning to add more nuclear stations.
After Fukushima they became 94% reliant on imported energy and the original plan needed a change. Less nuclear. Get electricity through international power grid, import natural gas and hydrogen to replace the oil, getting closer to an emission free society. Hydrogen can clean up iron and steel industry as well, not only transportation.
They however can't rely solely on the Asia International Grid. Russia would be more than happy to control Japan's electricity supply the same way they are using the natural gas pipelines as a political tool against Europe. China is no different, Korean people hate Japanese due to the war.
Diversification is key.
 
In 2010 Japan was 80% reliant on imported energy. They were dedicated to make progress toward decreasing this number and increasing the share of zero emission sources so they were planning to add more nuclear stations.
After Fukushima they became 94% reliant on imported energy and the original plan needed a change. Less nuclear. Get electricity through international power grid, import natural gas and hydrogen to replace the oil, getting closer to an emission free society. Hydrogen can clean up iron and steel industry as well, not only transportation.
They however can't rely solely on the Asia International Grid. Russia would be more than happy to control Japan's electricity supply the same way they are using the natural gas pipelines as a political tool against Europe. China is no different, Korean people hate Japanese due to the war.
Diversification is key.

????? And using H2 as a storage medium just makes all of that worse......

Even importing LNG and burning it for electricity for BEVs would be cheaper and more efficient than importing H2 and using it in FCEVs....
 
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It's so funny to see so much Toyota bashing here. Toyota has saved more CO2 with its Prius and other hybrids directly, besides indirect savings from hybrids developed by other car makers who were motivated by Prius hybrids, than any other automaker.
The bashing is because they actively deny the successes that PEV has already had, continue to present BEV concepts that suggest BEV suitable only for stupid tiny urban commuters that they don't make, and have advertising that deliberately misrepresents plug-ins.

Guess which major automaker is quite close to meeting the EU emission targets next year?

That's helped by selling only 1/4 of what if sells in the USA, despite the European market being the same size, and selling a much higher proportion of its sales as hybrids.

In North America, it sells a much higher proportion of larger, conventional vehicles and those are clearly less efficient than those of its competitors.

EV is only zero emission if we ignore the extra CO2-e of the batteries and the source of the electrons.

The EVs also force more power generation, that hybrids don't.
Case 1: You put up solar panels (if they work in your area) and drive an EV. You are taking away the clean solar power that could reduce dirty power in someone else's house.
Case 2: You put up solar panels (if it works) and drive a Toyota hybrid. You cleaned up the grid, and also reduced your own car's CO2 emission by half. Also, you avoided the extra CO2-e of the big battery.

So what is better? As I showed earlier, in many states in US (e.g. W. Virginina), an Ioniq hybrid beats the identical Ioniq EV any day of the year; cold or warm.
I think, if Model S had a hybrid version, it would also save more CO2 than itself.
This is more true in developing countries where grid is often the biggest source of emission.

if our governments didn't divert funds to EVs so much, Toyota and others would have sold over 200 M hybrids by now. No big incentives needed.
Why West Virginia? A state with fewer than 2M people. Why not California with 40M people where generation is increasingly efficient and clean?

The not-really-zero-emissions is a tired straw man argument, that ignores the parallel developments in electricity generation, where grids are becoming progressively cleaner.

Why is more generation required a bad thing, when it's displacing the less efficient burning of gasoline and diesel, and removing the toxic emissions from the tailpipes of all the vehicles where commuters and pedestrians are in large numbers?

Why do you think people would buy HEVs in large numbers when US hybrid sales peaked at 3.5% and fell when gas prices fell, even though falling gas prices made it cheaper to own one? It's clear that people didn't _really_ want them. Even the hybrid market itself has shifted to less efficient hybrids.

EVs, meanwhile, are vehicles that have high satisfaction ratings, and which people want more when they get to experience them. As the technology has improved, and the infrastructure has grown, demand has continued to increase, even as subsidies have gradually been reduced, and in Europe we see 1 year waiting lists, as manufacturers have deliberately delayed sales to 2020.

The only real prospect of dealing with long-term energy problems, and eliminating the tens of hundreds of thousands of deaths and the chronic diseases caused by pollution, is to electrify transportation, and shift from fuel-based energy, to technology-based energy (use replacing consume). That's why governments support EVs and renewable generation, and thanks to that support, both of them have improved in capability and fallen in price dramatically, which now leaves us at a point where forecasts are pointing to future, unsubsidized, market dominance limited only by the speed at which they can grow manufacturing.
 
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EV is only zero emission if we ignore the extra CO2-e of the batteries and the source of the electrons.

???? Which part of curtailment avoidance confuses you ????

BEVs can easily be aggregated to absorb wind or solar that would be curtailed which is rapidly becoming more common. Even IF you could do that with H2 (you can't because electrolysis is too expensive) you'd still be 100% nat gas until the deficit is filled in.

A kWh delivered to a BEV using curtailed wind or solar is using clean energy that would have been wasted if it wasn't connected to the grid ready to charge....
 
But it's not emission free. They are . thankfully . looking for an emission free solution. Unlike our great president.

LOL!!! Where do you think the H2 is coming from??????

Jesus.... Hydrogen isn't magic!!!!

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We need H2 for some things that CH4 cannot be used for like manufacturing fertilizer. It's counter-productive to use H2 for a task like electricity generation that CH4 can perform perfectly well while we're still producing most H2 from fools fuel..... until that changes using H2 in cars is beyond idiotic.
 
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LOL!!! Where do you think the H2 is coming from??????

Jesus.... Hydrogen isn't magic!!!!

1-s2.0-S0360319914023374-gr1.jpg


We need H2 for some things that CH4 cannot be used for like manufacturing fertilizer. It's counter-productive to use H2 for a task like electricity generation that CH4 can perform perfectly well while we're still producing most H2 from fools fuel..... until that changes using H2 in cars is beyond idiotic.

They have their plans (in the link I posted earlier). Not all of them are emission free yet. But that's the goal.

  • Extraction of hydrogen by gasification of Australian brown coal.
  • Production of hydrogen by electrolysis based on New Zealand geothermal power.
  • Production of hydrogen by electrolysis based on Norwegian hydropower.
  • Production of hydrogen by steam reforming based on Bruneian natural gas.
  • Supply chain of ammonia (as an energy carrier) with Saudi Arabia.
 
There are like 25,000 fuel cell forklifts in the US, so it's not that unusual.
For comparison, there were 260,000 forklifts sold in the USA in 2018. 64% of them were electric. The growth rate was only slightly higher for electric than for ICE (2.8% v 2.7%).
Zero tailpipe emissions are very helpful for indoor operation.
Combine that with low speed and the need for lifting capability, and being majority electric already isn't surprising.
 
They have their plans (in the link I posted earlier). Not all of them are emission free yet. But that's the goal.

  • Extraction of hydrogen by gasification of Australian brown coal.
  • Production of hydrogen by electrolysis based on New Zealand geothermal power.
  • Production of hydrogen by electrolysis based on Norwegian hydropower.
  • Production of hydrogen by steam reforming based on Bruneian natural gas.
  • Supply chain of ammonia (as an energy carrier) with Saudi Arabia.

And as I've said.... importing LNG would be cheaper, cleaner and more efficient. The only downside is greenwashing is harder......

H2 from electrolysis is great.... sell it as H2 and import LNG. Trade 100GWh of H2 for 150GWh of LNG... the buyer uses the H2 to make NH4 you use the LNG to make electricity to charge BEVs. Lower overall emissions and everyone wins.... When you can't sell anymore H2 because you're making enough to fill demand THEN and ONLY THEN will it make sense as a fuel.... for ROCKETS... use the H2 to make pure CH4 for rockets; Once that need is filled then it will make sense to make aviation fuel; THEN cars.....
 
And as I've said.... importing LNG would be cheaper, cleaner and more efficient. The only downside is greenwashing is harder......

H2 from electrolysis is great.... sell it as H2 and import LNG. Trade 100GWh of H2 for 150GWh of LNG... the buyer uses the H2 to make NH4 you use the LNG to make electricity to charge BEVs. Lower overall emissions and everyone wins.... When you can't sell anymore H2 because you're making enough to fill demand THEN and ONLY THEN will it make sense as a fuel.... for ROCKETS... use the H2 to make pure CH4 for rockets; Once that need is filled then it will make sense to make aviation fuel; THEN cars.....

They are already importing LNG from Canada.
 
They are already importing LNG from Canada.

And there's plenty more to be had.... converting LNG to H2 for a 25% loss to be used as a fuel would be idiotic. Producing H2 from electrolysis and burning it as a fuel instead of selling it as H2 would be even more idiotic.

CH4 is worth $0.02/kWh

H2 is worth $0.40/kWh

So you could trade 1kWh of H2 for 20kWh of CH4. If your objective is energy and not H2... why.... why would you not do that???? Using H2 for fuel is idiotic on so many... many levels. Make H2 from electrolysis... that's great.... then SELL it for $0.40/kWh and BUY LNG for ~$0.02/kWh!

Burning H2 as fuel is idiotic.....
 
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HFCEV always looks like pie in the sky. "Someday it'll make economic sense." "Someday it'll be efficient". "Someday it'll be green". Not today, though.

BEV is affordable, efficient, and green — right now. Plus the grid keeps getting cleaner, and battery technologies continue to improve. On past form that means BEV will stay well ahead of HFCEV.

So far the only coherent objection I've heard to BEV is that nickel supplies might constrain battery manufacturing — someday, if nothing changes. But we're a long way from that point, and technologies will change and improve. Nickel constraints may turn out to be a mirage, something like the Malthusian trap.
 
HFCEV always looks like pie in the sky. "Someday it'll make economic sense." "Someday it'll be efficient". "Someday it'll be green". Not today, though.

BEV is affordable, efficient, and green — right now. Plus the grid keeps getting cleaner, and battery technologies continue to improve. On past form that means BEV will stay well ahead of HFCEV.

So far the only coherent objection I've heard to BEV is that nickel supplies might constrain battery manufacturing — someday, if nothing changes. But we're a long way from that point, and technologies will change and improve. Nickel constraints may turn out to be a mirage, something like the Malthusian trap.

Agreed. I think there's a good chance we'll see a day that there's 20GWh of surplus wind or solar even after BEVs are charged and grid storage is full on a typical day and the best thing to do with that is to split water. It's possible we'll be producing 20B tons/yr of H2 and only need 10B tons/yr for fertilizer and such and we might as well sell the rest as fuel. UNTIL that day it makes ZERO sense to use H2 as fuel. That day is likely >30 years away.... using H2 in FCEVs does nothing to help us get there. There's already more than enough demand for H2 to drive innovation. If 10B kg/yr demand for H2 doesn't do it another 0.1B kg/yr for FCEVs isn't going to help.....
 
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New day, same old FUD. It isn't as if it hasn't been debunked here multiple times, either.

New Data Show Electric Vehicles Continue to Get Cleaner

2016 data:

I believe I already pointed out at that time, the big flaw in it. That link says :
"For electric vehicles, the calculation includes both power plant emissions and emissions from the production of coal, natural gas and other fuels power plants use."

So seems like it does not include the CO2-e of the battery pack. Also need to check their other assumptions.
Without the EVs, the grids, biggest CO2 emitters, would've been even more clean. Right?
And the charging infrastructure needs to be developed before EVs can be sold in large numbers, right?
Hybrids can be sold in large numbers today. Hybrids are solution for today. EVs are a partial solution for tomorrow.

if you go outside US, to some developing countries like India that came up in news for the Delhi pollution pictures floating around, it gets worse. 3/4 of Indian electricity is fossil fuel; 56% pure coal. What will happen there? That's not a small country. 5th by total electricity generation.
Electricity sector in India - Wikipedia
indian grid.JPG


Hybrids didn't become unpopular in the US.
Hybrid sales got suppressed by the lavish incentives showered on EVs and PHEVs.
Did you all forget the $7500 tax credit, HOV access, more money from states, etc. etc? Hybrids get 0.
The same people who used to drive Prius and put up solar panels now buy electric cars. So, that's how already clean hybrids are being replaced by slightly worse or slightly better EVs, depending on where the car is driven. At the same time, adding more demand on the grid, the biggest emitter.

But there are still categories of vehicles where EVs make no sense, no matter how much incentives and cash is put on their hoods.. Watch the sales of hybrid RAV4 that was just launched.
 
Did you all forget the $7500 tax credit, HOV access, more money from states, etc. etc? Hybrids get 0.

Anyone driving a Volt got all those things. A Volt is a hybrid. Building a hybrid without a plug is even more idiotic than a FCEV without a plug. If you're going to go through the trouble and cost of an electric motor + a battery..... ADD A PLUG!!!!

But there are still categories of vehicles where EVs make no sense, no matter how much incentives and cash is put on their hoods.. Watch the sales of hybrid RAV4 that was just launched.

Um... no.... electrification makes sense under all scenarios because BEVs reduce primary energy use by ~70% while FCEVs reduce it by ~10% and possibly increase it depending in the efficiency of the delivery infrastructure (like using LH2).

ALSO unlike FCEVs there IS a lack of demand for batteries and R&D which building BEVs CAN help to drive. Development of H2 production, technology and infrastructure already has plenty of demand.


Ok... look at that breakdown. Guess where curtailment starts to occur... ~20%. So in <5 years even India will be in a position where BEVs could be charged with >90% wind or solar even if the grid is >50% coal. Because.... and I'm getting really sick of repeating this....

EVs DO NOT USE GRID MIX!!!!!!
 
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