Never assume malice when ignorance is possible. Typical politicians think H2 is made with a lantern battery, two nails and tap water.
Feinstein/Pelosi think you need a kite and a lightning storm instead of the battery.
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Hydrogen vs. Battery
- Thread starter siry
- Start date
Never assume malice when ignorance is possible. Typical politicians think H2 is made with a lantern battery, two nails and tap water.
Feinstein/Pelosi think you need a kite and a lightning storm instead of the battery.
brucet999
Active Member
I just ran into an article touting a new way of producing H2 for fuel cell use.
https://aip.scitation.org/doi/10.1063/1.5124371
If I read the article correctly, the system can generate 0.73 W for 70 minutes with the consumption of 3 grams of Al and production of a similar amount of AlOH3 as waste material. Scaled up to a Ms sized vehicle, consuming 300Wh/mile, I think one would have to feed 411grams of aluminum per mile and get rid of a similar amount of aluminum hydroxide waste. Brilliant!
That's very similar chemistry to an aluminum-air battery, but they over-complicated it by throwing a fuel cell in the middle of the process. And, of course, the fuel cell version is less efficient. Wikipedia lists aluminum-air batteries at 1.3 kWh/kg, but the hydrogen-producing version is only giving an output of 0.28 kWh/kg. And that 0.28 is only measuring the weight of the aluminum, not counting electrolyte, fuel cell, or other packaging.
Why focus on the kWh/kg? Because the article didn't quote efficiency numbers, and this gives a way to compare. Each kg of aluminum consumed has an energy cost, and you lose over 75% of that energy by producing hydrogen and going through a fuel cell.
Why focus on the kWh/kg? Because the article didn't quote efficiency numbers, and this gives a way to compare. Each kg of aluminum consumed has an energy cost, and you lose over 75% of that energy by producing hydrogen and going through a fuel cell.
It appears that you don't understand the point or value of incentives. Incentives aren't there because you want to save money. They're there to - incentivize - purchases. The Model 3 is still on the list.
How do you know someone doesn't understand incentives? They purchase 5 EVs and complain they cannot get rebates on all 5. But they still buy them.
brucet999
Active Member
California politicians are very hostile to high income people, except as it comes to asking them for campaign donations and jacking up their income tax rates. They passed a law recently to remove EV incentives from vehicles costing above a certain amount on the grounds that taxpayers should not support "rich peoples'" purchases. Model 3 is on higher end of the qualifying price margin, so it qualifies for a lesser amount of incentive than cheaper ones do.
FutureShock
Best Coast Denizen
Actually, that line of attack — ‘EV subsidies just go to rich people’ — is a favorite of the anti-EV FUDsters bankrolled by the likes of the Kochs and Big Oil.
It’s understandable why politicians who are pro-EV wouldn’t want to walk into that particular trap, as it tends to delegitimize EV subsidies in general.
But, if they were just to tell Big Oil and/or Republicans to eff off with that nonsense (i.e. be more aggressive), I’d be all good with that too.
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brucet999
Active Member
In California nothing the legislature does is in fear of the Koch Brothers. Republicans literally have no voice in the legislature and not one statewide elected official. We Californians live in a one party state that may be the farthest left of all 50.
Technically, oil subsidy benefits the rich oil company stock holders and well paid employees and also the rich people who tend to have large vehicles that get very low MPG - because they can afford it. How about we level the playing field and put that subsidy money toward free nationalized healthcare?
FutureShock
Best Coast Denizen
Plenty of Dems in the state legislature won in ‘purple’ districts, and by narrow margins (look at Orange County, for instance).
Those folks do have to worry about Repub talking points against Dem policies/proposals, even if they’re largely BS (and some of those same purple-district Dems are pretty centrist, and may even partly buy into said talking points).
Things work the other way, too. Watch a ‘kinder and gentler’ Trump magically appear not long before Election Day, complete with middle-class tax cuts and maybe even a ‘yuuuuge’ health care proposal.
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1. What adds heat to the planet:
1a. Converting matter into energy (fossil fuel, bio fuel, nuclear)
1b. Radiative heat fro the Sun.
2. How do we get rid of heat on earth?
2a. Radiation into space because there is minimal matter in space for heat transfer by conduction.
2b. Use anti-solar panels (https://www.sciencenews.org/article/device-harnesses-cold-night-sky-generate-electricity-dark)
2c. Store it in matter like taking CO2 from the air to make either fuel or other matter.
3. What does CO2 do?
- Absorbs infra red energy and emits it in a random direction - meaning likely back to Earth and not into space.
So we need to...
- Reduce 1a because releasing stored energy is adding more heat energy into the environment.
- Limit/control CO2 level using 2b, 2c and 3.
1a. Converting matter into energy (fossil fuel, bio fuel, nuclear)
1b. Radiative heat fro the Sun.
2. How do we get rid of heat on earth?
2a. Radiation into space because there is minimal matter in space for heat transfer by conduction.
2b. Use anti-solar panels (https://www.sciencenews.org/article/device-harnesses-cold-night-sky-generate-electricity-dark)
2c. Store it in matter like taking CO2 from the air to make either fuel or other matter.
3. What does CO2 do?
- Absorbs infra red energy and emits it in a random direction - meaning likely back to Earth and not into space.
So we need to...
- Reduce 1a because releasing stored energy is adding more heat energy into the environment.
- Limit/control CO2 level using 2b, 2c and 3.
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Curious George
Member
A list of used Mirais?
Mirais were always available. That is way too old model with obvious issues. Just 4 seats being major one.I was referring to the new models, Honda Clarity Fuel cell and Hyundai Nexo.
I'll admit, I repeated what I heard from other people, as I am not in the market for a car right now.
People in southern California report dealers marking up the lease prices for Nexo.
I just looked up cars.com just now. There is no Clarity fuel cell available.
Only 9 Hyundai Nexo within 100 miles of Los Angeles.
https://www.cars.com/for-sale/searc...hSource=GN_REFINEMENT&sort=relevance&zc=90002
It seems they are for sale only, not lease, but I am not 100% sure.
If someone wants to check the dealers for a lease price, check it out and see what you find. I'll be curious to know what the situation is.
JohnSnowNW
Active Member
A list of used Mirais?
I was referring to the new models, Honda Clarity Fuel cell and Hyundai Nexo.
I'll admit, I repeated what I heard from other people, as I am not in the market for a car right now.
People in southern California report dealers marking up the lease prices for Nexo.
I just looked up cars.com just now. There is no Clarity fuel cell available.
Only 9 Hyundai Nexo within 100 miles of Los Angeles.
https://www.cars.com/for-sale/searc...hSource=GN_REFINEMENT&sort=relevance&zc=90002
It seems they are for sale only, not lease, but I am not 100% sure.
If someone wants to check the dealers for a lease price, check it out and see what you find. I'll be curious to know what the situation is.
Here are 12 Clarity FCVs available, today:
Clarity FCV
Roughly half are 2019's...maybe you can get them to take some money off since they've probably been sitting on the lots a while.
That's actually more Nexo's than I'd expect. Global production is only 4,000 units...and there are nine units just sitting there on lots? Those things are popular.
If there's any doubt that hydrogen is the wrong direction...
Cost of infrastructure and generate, compress, truck/ship, store vs electricity transmission and storage (battery or kinetic energy storage like hydro). This will never be lower than solar+storage, which is already lower than operating cost of coal and natural gas plants.
Utility solar was a 5 cents a kWh back in 2016.
Utility solar is 1-2 cents a kWh in 2019.
Utility solar (1-2 cents a kWh) + storage (1 cent a kWh) already lower than operating cost of coal plants and natural gas plants in 2019.
Utility solar is 1-2 cents a kWh in 2019.
Utility solar (1-2 cents a kWh) + storage (1 cent a kWh) already lower than operating cost of coal plants and natural gas plants in 2019.
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Curious George
Member
Interesting find. I sent inquiries to 2 to check availability. Haven't hear yet. Possibly next week I will hear back.
Instead of random speculation, why don't you go ahead and contact them to see how much discount they are offering?
The lease prices for Mirai and Clarity have actually gone up slightly by $10/month, so I doubt they are as desperate as you say.
TONY SEBA ! That is a 4 year old video with data till 2015 when rooftop solar was going ho-hum. He is already proven wrong about his S-curve nonsense on things that have a long cycle. No, the entire world energy production won't be 100% solar in the next 10 years. China just fired up a ton of coal plants and China makes the cheapest solar. Energy plants are not the same life-cycle as consumer phones. Tony overlooked the govt subsidies for solar that started after the deep recession. I for one, installed it because it made the cost 30% lower. When I compare roof top solar costs now, it is actually higher, not much lower as Tony claimed.
"Utility solar (1-2 cents a kWh) + storage (1 cent a kWh) already lower than operating cost of coal plants and natural gas plants in 2019"
The cost of buying clean energy is higher now in California. I can provide proof if needed. You can find it on PG&E website.
I'm afraid you have to provide some proof of this. I watched the Tony Seba video you posted. He provided no proof of this.
While this may be true in some small pockets like islands of Hawaii, I very much doubt this is generally true for continental US with natural gas prices at historical lows. Especially places like West Virgina and northerns latitudes where the sun doesn't shine as much.
Why is Tony comparing solar prices to oil prices when most power plants are coal or natural gas?
Without a proof of your general claim, @ohmman will delete your post, as he said up thread.
As for your comment on hydrogen costs: yes, this is completely logical to assume that the hydrogen related costs will remain same while solar costs have dropped by 200x from 1970s (as claimed by Tony Seba). Here is some news from Bloomberg new energy.
Bloomberg - Are you a robot?
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Of course, Tony's predictions are not 100% spot on. But the general trend holds.
No idea what's going on with PG&E but they once said chromium is good for you. Anyway, this is what's happening in the real world.
REPORT: Replacing Arizona’s Coal Fleet with Solar Power Would Save Customers Billions of Dollars
The Navajo Generating Station Coal Plant Officially Powers Down. Will Renewables Replace It?
Nevada Utility NV Energy Goes “Solar Plus Storage” in a Big Way
And, of course, the battery storage success in Australia.
I see the shift to hydrogen beneficial to preventing sea level rise. When we strip H from H2O and store it, what will happen is the inevitable leaks causing hydrogen to just float up to the upper atmosphere then stripped away from Earth into the vastness of space. Looks like we are setting ourselves up for a water AND energy crisis. Hey, gotta make life interesting, right?
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... BTW, my power rate (with NVE ever increasingly integrating more and more solar) just went down 7% in January. I am on Time of Use and my average power price is at 7 cents per kWh for the last 12 months. I now have EV rates, which will probably drop my average per kWh rate to 6 cents this year.
Curious George
Member
I browsed all 3 links you provided, but I still don't see how you came up with these figures you wrote:
"Utility solar (1-2 cents a kWh) + storage (1 cent a kWh) already lower than operating cost of coal plants and natural gas plants in 2019."
I am specifically curious about your storage number. I am assuming you meant battery storage.
The best I can find is this study from nrel on utility scale storage. Today's costs are $350/KWh per the chart below.
Using their numbers of 15 years, once daily discharge (5475 total charge-discharge cycles) leads to 6.3 cents/kWh. If we include the round trip loss of battery storage, it is 7 cents a kWh.
https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy19osti/73222.pdf
nrel doc page 11 said:
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This is how coal dies — super cheap renewables plus battery storage
2017: solar+storage median 3.7 cents a kWh
Los Angeles approves 'historically low cost' solar+storage project
2019: LA fixed price below 2 cents for solar+storage.
Curious George
Member
OK, Thanks. I read the first one. It seems to say what you said: storage cost of < 1cents/kWh. So I am having a hard time reconciling the NREL battery storage cost with this 2018 article. Hopefully the author didn't make any mistake in coming up with that 1c/kWh.
There is a link for 'quietly reported', but that seems like author's document and costs are in different units (MWh vs. kW-mo).
The total project cost doesn't explicitly say the battery capacity in the project, so 1c/kWh is still little doubtful, imo.
How much was the big battery in Australia? I think it was $100M+ for some 129 MWh, which is much much higher than 1c/kWh storage with charge&discharge.
Here is another report from EIA published Feb 2019. This shows a somewhat different picture of cost of new power plants.
Just solar is almost same as new CC plants. I don't fully understand the various tables here. Will try some other time to understand what exactly these LCOE and LACE mean.
https://www.eia.gov/outlooks/aeo/pdf/electricity_generation.pdf
For example, this table that indicates CC is lower cost without tax credi inclusion.
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Curious George
Member
On to hydrogen again! Aberdeen hydrogen buses. 30 kg refill in 20 mins, Not bad for a ZEV bus.
Kuching, Sarawak, Malaysia started fuel cell buses just las month.
Sarawak’s hydrogen bus service hits the road tomorrow
Kuching, Sarawak, Malaysia started fuel cell buses just las month.
Sarawak’s hydrogen bus service hits the road tomorrow
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