Hydrogen vs. Battery

[eevee-fan]

OK, Thanks. I read the first one. It seems to say what you said: storage cost of < 1cents/kWh. So I am having a hard time reconciling the NREL battery storage cost with this 2018 article. Hopefully the author didn't make any mistake in coming up with that 1c/kWh.
There is a link for 'quietly reported', but that seems like author's document and costs are in different units (MWh vs. kW-mo).
The total project cost doesn't explicitly say the battery capacity in the project, so 1c/kWh is still little doubtful, imo.
How much was the big battery in Australia? I think it was $100M+ for some 129 MWh, which is much much higher than 1c/kWh storage with charge&discharge.

Here is another report from EIA published Feb 2019. This shows a somewhat different picture of cost of new power plants.
Just solar is almost same as new CC plants. I don't fully understand the various tables here. Will try some other time to understand what exactly these LCOE and LACE mean.
https://www.eia.gov/outlooks/aeo/pdf/electricity_generation.pdf

The 1 cent is over the life of the battery system and it's not built 1 kWh battery to 1 kWh solar, just a fraction. CAISO has nice charts that can tell you how much the system would get used over the year, by month. Scroll down to battery and you will see how the battery is used day by day. Battery is currently deployed to act as a grid balancer, more like a peaker plant except it's way better than a peaker plant in meeting instantaneous demand, thus no need to overbuild and overproduce.
California ISO - Supply

Based on Time of use rates, if I were to buy a Powerwall, I would only expect to use it 4 mo out of the year and only during the peak rate period. So, my Powerwall should last a very long time, as in several decades.

 

[brucet999]

If there's any doubt that hydrogen is the wrong direction...

Cost of infrastructure and generate, compress, truck/ship, store vs electricity transmission and storage (battery or kinetic energy storage like hydro). This will never be lower than solar+storage, which is already lower than operating cost of coal and natural gas plants.

Utility solar was a 5 cents a kWh back in 2016.
Utility solar is 1-2 cents a kWh in 2019.
Utility solar (1-2 cents a kWh) + storage (1 cent a kWh) already lower than operating cost of coal plants and natural gas plants in 2019.

Can someone tell me in the case of H2 generation by steam reforming of methane, what happens to all of the byproduct CO? Is that a feedstock for some other useful or at least non-harmful product?

 

[eevee-fan]

Can someone tell me in the case of H2 generation by steam reforming of methane, what happens to all of the byproduct CO? Is that a feedstock for some other useful or at least non-harmful product?

If not captured, it goes into the atmosphere. That's why converting fossil fuel to hydrogen does not make sense. It can, however, allow us to have 1 engine/fuel cell solution for the world.

I still think EVs and V2G is the solution.

 

[ggr]

On to hydrogen again! Aberdeen hydrogen buses. 30 kg refill in 20 mins, Not bad for a ZEV bus.

Kuching, Sarawak, Malaysia started fuel cell buses just las month.
Sarawak’s hydrogen bus service hits the road tomorrow

20 Minutes? I can't wait that long!

 

[FutureShock]

"20 Minutes [for H2 fueling]? I can't wait that long!"

Ironic, no? Especially considering CG's apparent feelings on fast EV charging.

No, CG wants to fill up in 5 minutes, dadgum it, so he can drive to... well, nowhere. 'Cuz hydrogen has no infrastructure.

 

[FutureShock]

LOL... even 'hydrogen diehard' Toyota is hedging its bets and positioning itself to go EV if need be.

https://electrek.co/2020/02/03/toyota-panasonic-to-launch-big-venture-for-making-ev-batteries-starting-april/

Interesting article excerpt:

In a behind-the-scenes roundtable at the 2019 LA Auto Show, Toyota engineer Jackie Birdsall told us that [Toyota] has “strategically positioned ourselves from an engineering standpoint” to quickly shift to EVs if “market demand for a battery-electric vehicle” arises.

Hmm, sounds like a company that's not believing 100% in H2 anymore.

Especially considering that Tesla (stock price location: orbit) has already proven there's market demand for EVs.

.

 

[eevee-fan]

Toyota - the next Kodak. Long live Tesla, $720 and beyond!

 

[brucet999]

If not captured, it goes into the atmosphere. That's why converting fossil fuel to hydrogen does not make sense. It can, however, allow us to have 1 engine/fuel cell solution for the world.

I still think EVs and V2G is the solution.

I just looked up the process and found that they run a further steam reformation step to convert the byproduct CO into H2 and - wait for it - CO2, thus ending up with the same atmospheric result as if they had burned the methane in the first place.

 

[eevee-fan]

I just looked up the process and found that they run a further steam reformation step to convert the byproduct CO into H2 and - wait for it - CO2, thus ending up with the same atmospheric result as if they had burned the methane in the first place.

.... but you are missing the most important part... this creates jobs and profits to the fossil fuel industry...

 

[eevee-fan]

California lawmaker introduces bill to make PG&E a publicly owned utility

 

[brucet999]

And on it goes…Bill Gates is having a hydrogen powered yacht built with enough fuel tank capacity to cross from London to New York.

Bill Gates orders £500m hydrogen-powered superyacht

Better than burning Diesel or bunker C, perhaps, but where will all of that H2 come from?

Is he going to build a huge electrolysis plant powered by wind or PV?

Most commercial production of H2 is done via steam reformation of methane; CH4 + H2O plus heat yields CO + 3H2. CO is a poisonous gas, dangerous in enclosed spaces, and a minor air pollutant if released to the atmosphere. It presumably could be burned to yield CO2 plus heat, or a further step of steam reforming could proceed as CO + H2O plus heat yields H2 + CO2 In either case, almost the same atmospheric result as having burned methane in the first place.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

And on it goes…Bill Gates is having a hydrogen powered yacht built with enough fuel tank capacity to cross from London to New York.

Bill Gates orders £500m hydrogen-powered superyacht

Better than burning Diesel or bunker C, perhaps, but where will all of that H2 come from?

Is he going to build a huge electrolysis plant powered by wind or PV?

Most commercial production of H2 is done via steam reformation of methane; CH4 + H2O plus heat yields CO + 3H2. CO is a poisonous gas, dangerous in enclosed spaces, and a minor air pollutant if released to the atmosphere. It presumably could be burned to yield CO2 plus heat, or a further step of steam reforming could proceed as CO + H2O plus heat yields H2 + CO2 In either case, almost the same atmospheric result as having burned methane in the first place.

Bill Gates is not buying the MASSIVE YACHT, as was reported yesterday.

Bill Gates 'not buying our hydrogen yacht'

Billionaire Bill Gates has not commissioned a hydrogen-powered superyacht from designer Sinot, the firm has told the BBC.

It has been widely reported that Mr Gates ordered a £500m ($644m) luxury vessel, based on the concept which was displayed in Monaco in 2019.

Sinot said it had "no business relationship" with Bill Gates.

 

[Curious George]

Another electric-fuel cell hybrid commercial truck is announced.
Plug Power Partners with Lightning Systems to Build Zero-Emission ‘Middle-Mile’ Delivery Solution

Plug Power Partners with Lightning Systems to Build Zero-Emission ‘Middle-Mile’ Delivery Solution
Hydrogen fuel cell-powered Class 6 electric trucks manufactured to service the logistics industry

The zero-emission commercial trucks produced by the partnership will be powered by an integrated hybrid-electric drivetrain consisting of Plug Power’s ProGen fuel cell engines coupled with Lightning Systems’ electric vehicle drivetrain and batteries.

"Plug Power and Lightning Systems will deliver both standard and long-range Class 6 trucks through their partnership, taking full advantage of the value that fuel cells offer in commercial fleets where high utilization, long range, fast fueling, and maximization of cargo volume and payload are important. Plug Power’s ProGen engines provide 90 kW of fuel cell power and utilize the latest generation of the company’s proprietary MEA and metal plate stack technology, which delivers industry-leading power density. The standard vehicle offering includes an impressive 20kg of on-board hydrogen storage, delivering average range (for typical route profiles) in excess of 200 miles. An extended range option is also available, effectively doubling the standard average range to 400 miles."

 

[JRP3]

Pathetic.

 

[FutureShock]

Pathetic.

LOL, yup. To paraphrase from the movie Mean Girls...

"Stop trying to make hydrogen happen. Hydrogen isn't going to happen."

.

 

[JRP3]

 

[RubberToe]

Was surprised to see a 60 second commercial today for used Mirai's. Must be a lot coming off lease so they need to foist them off on someone...

 

[MP3Mike]

Hydrogen plant blows up: 'Scared the daylights out of us’: Explosion at hydrogen fuel plant damages 60 homes

I wonder if that was the only source for hydrogen in the area and if there will be a shortage now. (I didn't even think there were many/any hydrogen cars on the east coast.)

Edit: I see they mainly market to industrial use in things like forklifts.

 

[JohnSnowNW]

Daimler ends hydrogen car development because it's too costly - Electrek

 

[RubberToe]

@Curious George should be along shortly to point out how this will be an extremely positive outcome for those companies still developing fuel cell vehicles, as they will reap the massive profits now that Daimler is stopping development...

RT