Hydrogen vs. Battery

[JRP3]

We are fighting an irrational fear of running out of charge and being stranded in the middle of nowhere, regardless of the fact that most driving is done near home, not to mention there are outlets everywhere, and the car will give you fair warning when charge is running low. You're less likely to be stranded in a Tesla since the car will cut back performance to preserve the charge, unlike an ICE powered vehicle.

 

[JRP3]

I'll say it again because I don't quite believe it myself: The above paper is hosted on a fuel cell advocacy group website, written by an expert of 20 years in the fuel cell field

I just saved it to my hard drive, just in case.

 

[graham]

Give a Car journalist a Roadster (or a Model S) AND install a charge outlet in their home free of charge (excuse the pun).

Get these people to actually EXPERIENCE home recharging first hand!!!

I am hoping we start to see more of these types of articles now that customers are actually starting to use the Roadster as a daily driver. This will be very important information for the potential customers of the Model S (and for that matter, the Volt, the Karma, etc).

 

[malcolm]

I am hoping we start to see more of these types of articles now that customers are actually starting to use the Roadster as a daily driver. This will be very important information for the potential customers of the Model S (and for that matter, the Volt, the Karma, etc).

Me too.

In addition to independent long-term tests, it would be great if more Tesla drivers would blog their day-to-day experiences.

Big commitment, I know, but weren't these early adopters supposed to be BEV advocates?

Show me the advocacy!

(How about a sticky thread with links to any known Tesla owner blogs?)

 

[vfx]

Malcolm hits 1000 (and one) Posts!
:biggrin:

 

[graham]

RETECH 2009: hydrogen proponent Sandy Thomas says fuel cells beat the pants off of battery-powered cars

The most full-throated defense of hydrogen vehicles I heard was issued by Sandy Thomas, president of H2Gen Innovations, during the "Hydrogen, Fuel Cells & Advanced Engines" panel. H2Gen is mostly interested in stationary hydrogen production stations, but Thomas believes that hydrogen is the one right propulsion system for vehicles, since nothing else will meet America's greenhouse gas emissions, energy independence, and clean air targets. He had the presentation to prove that H2 cars beat battery vehicles, too, and was willing to share his slides with AutoblogGreen readers.

 

[JRP3]

That's a whole lot of pretty, meaningless, charts. And hydrogen from ethanol? Are you kidding me? We can not grow our fuel, no matter what the form is, and ethanol farming is inefficient to begin with. He really thinks it's more efficient to plant and harvest crops, turn them into ethanol, turn that into hydrogen, compress and transport the hydrogen, pump it into a tank at high pressure, then run that through an expensive fuel cell?

 

[doug]

RETECH 2009: hydrogen proponent Sandy Thomas says fuel cells beat the pants off of battery-powered cars

Slide #3

It's interesting to me that HFCVs are being rebranded as FCEVs (Fuel Cell Electric Vehicles), and that the fuel cell vehicle is now just one type of "all-electric vehicle." I mean that's sort of true, but this is clearly a marketing maneuver since EVs are now in vogue. This is similar to how plug-in hybrids have become "extended range electric vehicles," but much more underhanded, in my opinion.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Slide #3

It's interesting to me that HFCVs are being rebranded as FCEVs (Fuel Cell Electric Vehicles), and that the fuel cell vehicle is now just one type of "all-electric vehicle." I mean that's sort of true, but this is clearly a marketing maneuver since EVs are now in vogue. This is similar to how plug-in hybrids have become "extended range electric vehicles," but much more underhanded, in my opinion.

I didn't notice that. It certainly makes sense for them to take advantage of the popularity of EVs, even though at the core they are opposed to EVs, unlike the plug-ins.

But to be fair, it seems to be a term used a long time ago by Hyundai and Kia to describe their SUV fuel cell vehicles (the Tuscon & Sportage ones); I found an articles as far back as 2004 using the term, while the EREV term was invented by GM recently.

 

[vfx]

[It's interesting to me that HFCVs are being rebranded as FCEVs

FCEVs
Forever Coming Electric Vehicles?

 

[TEG]

Future Cars Eluding Viability

 

[TEG]

Foolish Concept Eternally Venal

 

[malcolm]

Foolishly Complex Electric Vehicles

 

[dpeilow]

Another interesting positioning of the two technologies in the UK mainstream press:

Metro | Wheels | Live the Electric Dream

No Tesla :frown:

 

[ToddLa]

Slide #3

It's interesting to me that HFCVs are being rebranded as FCEVs (Fuel Cell Electric Vehicles)

I am all for more cars being called EV, as long as at their base they are, it will get EVs to mass acceptance faster, and maybe someday we will also get a standard plug!

 

[JRP3]

Actually I don't like it because it clouds the issue and may end up letting hydrogen slip in to the push for BEV's, which would be a huge mistake. I've said it before and I'll keep saying it, money and time spent on hydrogen is money and time taken away from BEV's, which is where we should be focusing.

 

[dpeilow]

A real hydrogen-vs-battery battle: World Green Car of the Year Finalists announced: iMiEV, iQ and FCX Clarity

Your vote is needed!

 

[dpeilow]

A Better Battery? The Lithium Ion Cell Gets Supercharged: Scientific American

Interesting development, but WTF?

One downside: lithium ion batteries do not dispense their charge—carried by lithium ions and electrons, hence the power source's name—very quickly compared with some other types of storage batteries. Like a huge auditorium that only has a few doors, getting a large volume of patrons (lithium ions) in and out is a drawn-out affair. This phenomenon explains why some electric vehicles (the rip-roaring $109,000 Tesla Roadster with its massive battery pack excluded) can reach high speeds, but they suffer from poor acceleration compared with the propulsive force unleashed by the rapid succession of mini explosions in an internal combustion engine. The slow exchange of ions also means lithium ion batteries recharge slowly—just think of how long you have to charge your tiny cell phone.

Err, not really.

In an attempt to pick up the pace, the M.I.T. researchers coated the lithium iron phosphate material with an ion conductor, which in this case was a layer of glasslike lithium phosphate. Sure enough, the charge-carrying ions traveled much faster from their storage medium; a prototype battery the scientists built completely charged in about 10 to 20 seconds.

Oh how I am going to love quoting that one on some sites (practical or not, eat that H2 crowd).

 

[WarpedOne]

Err, not really.

Well, If you read it slowly and carefully - it is right. Most Li-Ion batteries have poor power density or poor capacity. You cannot get high power/high capacity cell.

Hi did write "the rip-roaring $109,000 Tesla Roadster with its massive battery pack excluded" Tesla gets power from parallel "ways".

 

[dpeilow]

^ I saw that, but there are ways in which other EV designers can mitigate the problem without going to a "massive" battery pack.