I wonder how many of the people unhappy about V11 are really trolls

[Paul-K]

I can easily see key parts of feedback being:
- too much information on the main screen, just show me what I need to drive
- buttons (for sentry/ defrost) too small
- too complex - why isn't everything under controls, it's all over the place (eg. Sentry, tyre pressure, Wifi etc)

The Swipe Cards in particular, while useful, was absolutely horrible UI.
Where else in Android or Apple would you swipe on a random part of the screen (with no visual target or icon) to bring up a feature. Yes you might swipe to flip an entire window, but never an individual part.

Your post made me think, but if your three bullet point items were consistent feedback from users I can think of many better solutions than they implemented here.

- Too much info: give an option to declutter. Like “Joe Mode”. Could be “Boomer Mode”.

- tiny buttons: Add one menu, like they did, call it “Boomer Menu” with larger buttons, but leave the tiny buttons there for everyone who already uses and has motor memory for them.

- “all in one place”: see above. No harm in adding an additional way to toggle a setting. But, there is harm in “adding taps”.

Now, I agree the swipe cards (trip meter, tire pressures) was a poor interface but that could have been solved another way while retaining the concept of driver-selected data always being visible.

 

[schrodarkian]

Now, I agree the swipe cards (trip meter, tire pressures) was a poor interface but that could have been solved another way while retaining the concept of driver-selected data always being visible.

Absolutely. My first drive with V11 and an alert for tire pressure pops up while I'm driving. OK, swipe's gone. Hmm. Maybe the little alert is a button that will display the current tire pressure so I know if I need to stop immediately or top off next charging stop. Hmmm... nope, not a button. Finally found it after reading the release notes. And yes, it's buried, and not easy to get to while driving. So maybe swipe wasn't the best thing ever, but it made key data readily accessible.

For those who say: read the release notes! What's wrong with you! Ha. I haven't read the release notes for iPhone's iOS in... forever? And didn't need to in order to accomplish the basics. This was also true for Tesla's releases until this one. I'm of the belief that the best consumer-facing software shouldn't require much in the way of documentation. Now, if you're operating a nuclear-power plant...

TL/DR version of this post: I don't actually want my seat heater to go on unless I press the seat heater button. But where the heck did that button go?

My main beef with this is that it's not intuitive, overly intrusive/automated, and hyper-focused on entertainment. Seems they are getting ahead of themselves à la "these things'll be driving themselves practically tomorrow anyway". Whelp, for all those of us who didn't purchase the self-driving packages, that ain't gonna happen. Probably won't happen any time soon for those of you who did. I know, sucks. And even if Tesla nailed the software tomorrow, let's wait and see how long it takes the law to allow drivers to watch movies or play games while driving...

I do appreciate that they added the ability to customize the layout somewhat, but they didn't go far enough with this. Maybe that's in the works. That might go a long way to resolving my personal issues with it. Still, for the majority of people, I would imagine that they wouldn't customize that much anyway, so the default settings are kind of important.

As for trolls: sorry, kinda feels like you're trolling, OP. Sure, maybe there are a few people gleefully capitalizing on this perceived misstep and trying to talk down Tesla's market cap from nearly a trillion to... nearly a trillion? Or maybe they are oil and gas industry plants attacking a prominent EV producer's UI choices in the hopes of keeping the ICE good times rollin'. Yeah. Could be.

But lets be real: many on this forum have had Teslas for years. I'm all Tesla. Sold my last ICE last year, and that's that. Don't want to buy another ICE again, and with the supercharging network, would struggle to see myself buying a non-Tesla... even if I'm in the anti-v11 and yoke-hater camp! So to say people are unhappy with something that Tesla did = those people are trolls, is really, really non-insightful. But makes for good engagement!

 

[Boza]

Automation is often brought up in relation to V11 and how Tesla is the leader in automation. Unfortunately, I think their UI design team is running much faster than their automation team.
Here is how “automation” in my, relatively recent, 2021 MS LR+ works:
- Windshield wipers. After experiencing a lot of “dry wipes” and “ignoring the torrent” the automatic function is off. My 2005 Audi S4 was always spot on (maybe because it had sensitivity adjustment dial)
- Screen brightness. Either too dark or too bright. After fidgeting with it for a month I turned it off, put it at 10% and never touched it again. So, not changing it is better than automating it. My 10+ year old iPhone 3GS handled auto screen brightness perfectly.
- Auto high beams. The Tesla headlights are atrocious to begin with, but the auto high beams reacted to traffic signs and moonlight. In general, they “played it safe” and stayed low beams 99% of the time. They are off and now I control the beams.
- AP. It gets scared, really scared - to the point that I am afraid that someone will rear end me - of overpasses, semis in the adjacent lane and flashing hazard lights. For some reason, it ignores them to the very last moment and then slams on the brakes. Now, I monitor for those condition and turn it off.
- FSD. Works on a straight highway to maintain within the lanes. Other manufacturers also have it, under not so flashy names. Even in a straight line, it moves left to right and back between the lanes all the time. Getting confused when needs to take an exit. It is a non starter in the city where it is a total chaos: Stops at every intersection, regardless of the light and simply gives up; it confuses left/right turn lanes; sees bicycles and pedestrians everywhere. I use it only as an aid on the highway when I need to find and turn on the defogger.
- Auto-parking. Other manufacturers also have it. This is probably the best working “auto feature”, even though sometimes tries to park over other cars.

So, where is the “leading” automation? Maybe the FSD beta program has it (does that make mine beta-beta?!) but I could not play the “safety” game in order to get it. I decided that it was too dangerous and stressful and gave up (glad I don’t have Tesla insurance). No more running red lights, stop signs and people “cutting me off” - much safer driving experience.

So, let’s be real. Their automation is nothing special so far.

 

[rjpjnk]

I feel like part of the problem is that people keep giving non-solutions like "you can just use voice commands" and other things that have been rehashed ad nauseam. the title of this thread even says 'everyone complaining is just a troll.'

Agreed. Given the title of this thread it seems pretty clear it was made primarily to stir discord. I think it’s mostly for bitching fun, poking fights, and the general antagonization of the 10 or so people who really don’t like v11. Yes, a more organized approach would be helpful.

 

[schulty]

I suspect though Tesla did do a whole lot of testing with various user groups prior to v11... it was just very different to those on TMC.
(Which by its nature as a forum will focus young-middle age, male and techy.)

As Tesla goes more mainstream, it's attracting an increasingly mainstream customer, older and less tech focussed.

Think about what your parents or grandparents might say about V10.

I can easily see key parts of feedback being:
- too much information on the main screen, just show me what I need to drive
- buttons (for sentry/ defrost) too small
- too complex - why isn't everything under controls, it's all over the place (eg. Sentry, tyre pressure, Wifi etc)

The Swipe Cards in particular, while useful, was absolutely horrible UI.
Where else in Android or Apple would you swipe on a random part of the screen (with no visual target or icon) to bring up a feature. Yes you might swipe to flip an entire window, but never an individual part.

Agreed. I’m a 56 yr old full stack software developer and I totally get your point. If I had a gripe, and realize that this not based on real world usage (yet, waiting for MYP) it would be the ugly color icons. That could have been left out or a display preference. They look odd to me.

 

[Sporty]

Automation is often brought up in relation to V11 and how Tesla is the leader in automation. Unfortunately, I think their UI design team is running much faster than their automation team.
Here is how “automation” in my, relatively recent, 2021 MS LR+ works:
- Windshield wipers. After experiencing a lot of “dry wipes” and “ignoring the torrent” the automatic function is off. My 2005 Audi S4 was always spot on (maybe because it had sensitivity adjustment dial)
- Screen brightness. Either too dark or too bright. After fidgeting with it for a month I turned it off, put it at 10% and never touched it again. So, not changing it is better than automating it. My 10+ year old iPhone 3GS handled auto screen brightness perfectly.
- Auto high beams. The Tesla headlights are atrocious to begin with, but the auto high beams reacted to traffic signs and moonlight. In general, they “played it safe” and stayed low beams 99% of the time. They are off and now I control the beams.
- AP. It gets scared, really scared - to the point that I am afraid that someone will rear end me - of overpasses, semis in the adjacent lane and flashing hazard lights. For some reason, it ignores them to the very last moment and then slams on the brakes. Now, I monitor for those condition and turn it off.
- FSD. Works on a straight highway to maintain within the lanes. Other manufacturers also have it, under not so flashy names. Even in a straight line, it moves left to right and back between the lanes all the time. Getting confused when needs to take an exit. It is a non starter in the city where it is a total chaos: Stops at every intersection, regardless of the light and simply gives up; it confuses left/right turn lanes; sees bicycles and pedestrians everywhere. I use it only as an aid on the highway when I need to find and turn on the defogger.
- Auto-parking. Other manufacturers also have it. This is probably the best working “auto feature”, even though sometimes tries to park over other cars.

So, where is the “leading” automation? Maybe the FSD beta program has it (does that make mine beta-beta?!) but I could not play the “safety” game in order to get it. I decided that it was too dangerous and stressful and gave up (glad I don’t have Tesla insurance). No more running red lights, stop signs and people “cutting me off” - much safer driving experience.

So, let’s be real. Their automation is nothing special so far.

What is sort of impressive is the perception on fsd beta. It has a reasonable rendering of the what’s going on most of the time. It is however failing to turn that into good/useful/safe driving. I can’t speak to how accurate the distances are on the internal model. Eg is it good enough to not curb the tires or not on a turn.

Makes me think they are relying too much on ML. (I have a hammer!). It really looks like other approaches could do better at driving given the perception it has then what it’s currently doing.

 

[father_of_6]

10 or so people who really don’t like v11

10? Seriously? I was under the impression that the majority of owners are unhappy with this change. The polls in various threads concur. V11 is awful. I have a hard time understanding how anyone could not be upset with it.

 

[Tee Why]

10? Seriously? I was under the impression that the majority of owners are unhappy with this change. The polls in various threads concur. V11 is awful. I have a hard time understanding how anyone could not be upset with it.

Im not upset. Took less than 10 mins of exploring and familiarization after the update, then maybe 2 days to become fluid and proficient.

The only thing id like to see is the turn signal camera moved from the bottom to the top of the screen.

 

[jjgg]

Im not upset. Took less than 10 mins of exploring and familiarization after the update, then maybe 2 days to become fluid and proficient.

The only thing id like to see is the turn signal camera moved from the bottom to the top of the screen.

You're in LA - there is almost no need for seat heater, defogger or wipers. That's probably why you're happy. I guess the designers of the UI live not far from you.

 

[Boza]

Argh! Stop blaming California for bad UI design. They don’t need to leave the state in order to test torrential rain (San Francisco), scorching heat (Dead Valley), snow blizzard (Tahoe), sunny beaches (LA)… Just drive around the state for a few days.
On top of that, a lot of break through design ideas came from the state, particularly, LA area. The fact that Tesla UI designers ignored decades of practice in the field has nothing to do with CA.

 

[Tee Why]

You're in LA - there is almost no need for seat heater, defogger or wipers. That's probably why you're happy. I guess the designers of the UI live not far from you.

I use the heated seats regularly and it does rain here so I've used the wipers as well. I don't see a problem there. But what's going on with the defogger that's a problem?

 

[Boza]

It used to be a button on the app banner at the bottom of the screen (the same as the seat warmers). One can see the status at a glance (defogger vs defroster) and use it almost without looking. Now, it is hidden under the HVAC menu. The rear defogger was the same - available on the banner. Now, I have to turn on the HVAC, turn on the rear defigger, turn off the HVAC. Because the rear defogger times out, in order to check the status, I have to go through the HVAC on/off procedure. The HVAC has nothing to do with the rear defogger and seat warmers but every time you want to use/check on them you have to turn it on/off.
Objectively, it takes longer, requires to take attention off the road and forces you to use unrelated system without any benefit. If they allow driving related functions to be added to the banner (like they do for entertainment apps) that would fix the problem, to a large extent. Another (less desirable but easier to accomplish) option is to disable the timeout of the HVAC menu and just leave it on the screen.

 

[Tee Why]

If a driver's margin of competence is crossed by having to tap on a screen two times instead of just one, said driver might want to reconsider taking the wheel in the first place. This is really all the more I have to say here.

 

[father_of_6]

It used to be a button on the app banner at the bottom of the screen (the same as the seat warmers). One can see the status at a glance (defogger vs defroster) and use it almost without looking. Now, it is hidden under the HVAC menu. The rear defogger was the same - available on the banner. Now, I have to turn on the HVAC, turn on the rear defigger, turn off the HVAC. Because the rear defogger times out, in order to check the status, I have to go through the HVAC on/off procedure. The HVAC has nothing to do with the rear defogger and seat warmers but every time you want to use/check on them you have to turn it on/off.
Objectively, it takes longer, requires to take attention off the road and forces you to use unrelated system without any benefit. If they allow driving related functions to be added to the banner (like they do for entertainment apps) that would fix the problem, to a large extent. Another (less desirable but easier to accomplish) option is to disable the timeout of the HVAC menu and just leave it on the screen.

The hardest part of all this is that *we already had it this way*... it was taken away from us. If v11 was the only thing I knew, I might be less disgruntled.

Someone at Tesla used both v10 and v11 and actually chose to push v11 to us. Key controls were removed, and a number of really inconvenient choices were made with v11.

 

[jjgg]

If a driver's margin of competence is crossed by having to tap on a screen two times instead of just one, said driver might want to reconsider taking the wheel in the first place. This is really all the more I have to say here.

It's part of a competent driver's judgement that doing this "procedure" on a dark, icy, winding mountain road is dangerous.

 

[father_of_6]

If a driver's margin of competence is crossed by having to tap on a screen two times instead of just one, said driver might want to reconsider taking the wheel in the first place. This is really all the more I have to say here.

That's crap. The software makes driving less safe, and you're attacking the driver. Since the driver doesn't get to design the software, the onus is on the manufacturer to make safety a priority.

On a dark winding road, if your windshield fogs up, with v11 you might be safer pulling over and putting your hazard lights on, then enabling the defogger before beginning to drive again.

 

[Boza]

If a driver's margin of competence is crossed by having to tap on a screen two times instead of just one, said driver might want to reconsider taking the wheel in the first place. This is really all the more I have to say here.

Following that logic, we should put the driving related controls on the rear screen, behind a passcode.
A major principle in critical systems UI design is to make it intuitive, easy to use and understand. There are just too many examples, especially in the aerospace industry, when that principle was violated/ignored to grave consequences.
When picking between form and function, function must always take priority in a critical system UI design.

 

[rjpjnk]

10? Seriously? I was under the impression that the majority of owners are unhappy with this change. The polls in various threads concur. V11 is awful. I have a hard time understanding how anyone could not be upset with it.

I’m pretty happy with it. Maybe because I only used v10 for 5 months so I wasn’t so accustomed to some of the things that got moved. That said, I can understand that if someone moved a favorite button you depended on for a year or two it would be disappointing.

 

[OxBrew]

Just going to drop this right here. Applies to Tesla moving controls down a level or 2, and everyone defending the moves.

"This quick rush to judgement has a name: Chesterton’s Fence. It was apparently John F. Kennedy’s favorite quote:

Let us say, for the sake of simplicity, a fence or gate is erected across a road. The more modern type of reformer goes gaily up to it and says, “I don’t see the use of this; let us clear it away.” To which the more intelligent type of reformer will well to answer: “If you don’t see the use of it, I certainly won’t let you clear it away. Go away and think. Then, when you can come back and tell me that you do see the use of it, I may allow you to destroy it.
G. K. Chesterton

from: Thinking with your hands – Scott Jenson (found it from a link shared above or in a similar thread)

 

[Boza]

One potential use of V11. Prolonged attention to the screen creates an opportunity to start showing ads in the future.
Can I get V10 back now?