If given choice: AP1 or AP2 HW with SW to come?

[Drone Flyer]

Would this be for use in 2017 ?

2037, when all cars on the road will have it and communicate with each other. By the time it does come out as FSD in 20 years, you would have moved on tp another car by then anyway.
I suggest getting the car with AP 1 and be happy with it. Wait 20 years for AP 2 in your car then.

 

[davinci2017]

AP2 will not be fully functional by the time Model 3 comes out.

Oh semantics, I meant AP2 full feature parity with AP1 and no "beta" or "limited speeds" or psycho turns trying to take out cars next to you

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

What's interesting about this is that even with all of their delays Tesla have still been well ahead of others when it comes to delivering capabilities.

But, I have one critical requirement.

It's got to work in the rain.

 

[Super_Popular]

AP2 will not be fully functional by the time Model 3 comes out.

Agreed and I bet that they will add more cameras and features.

AP4?

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

What do people really gain with AP2? If we ignore FSD and remove that from the equation.

You have 4 active cameras versus a single camera. This should give you more consistent lane keeping, and it should allow the blind spot monitoring system to be a lot better. I would imagine truck lust would be next to non-existent with AP2.

The autopark and autosummons should be significantly improved where they're capable of a lot more than they are today.

But, at the end of the day it's still a Level 2 system that requires hands on the steering wheel.

I likely won't be that motivated to upgrade until which time it transition to a Level 3 car, but that's when regulatory hurdles come to play.
I'm also not confident that the AP2 system will do that well in the rain. The AP1 system I have hardly ever works with its raining a lot. Even if it did engage it doesn't account for the rain on the roadway, and tracks in the wrong position.

The AP2 owners have also complained about rain on the rearview camera. So obviously Tesla hasn't fixed that to do well in the rain.

The other thing that makes me hesitant about AP2 is it's already obsolete in that it doesn't support the car-car communication like Cadillac has on one of their new cars.

 

[mbhforum]

What do people really gain with AP2? If we ignore FSD and remove that from the equation.

You have 4 active cameras versus a single camera. This should give you more consistent lane keeping, and it should allow the blind spot monitoring system to be a lot better. I would imagine truck lust would be next to non-existent with AP2.

The autopark and autosummons should be significantly improved where they're capable of a lot more than they are today.

But, at the end of the day it's still a Level 2 system that requires hands on the steering wheel.

I likely won't be that motivated to upgrade until which time it transition to a Level 3 car, but that's when regulatory hurdles come to play.
I'm also not confident that the AP2 system will do that well in the rain. The AP1 system I have hardly ever works with its raining a lot. Even if it did engage it doesn't account for the rain on the roadway, and tracks in the wrong position.

The AP2 owners have also complained about rain on the rearview camera. So obviously Tesla hasn't fixed that to do well in the rain.

The other thing that makes me hesitant about AP2 is it's already obsolete in that it doesn't support the car-car communication like Cadillac has on one of their new cars.

So this kind of answers my questions. It's all "should be better scenarios". There hasn't been any announced concrete list of features for AP EAP 2.0 that really guarantee you that it will perform any better then 1.0. It's all speculation. Sure the hardware sounds good on paper, but the software and technology need to be part of the equation and until this point, it's been a major fail. A lot of people gambled and sold their 1.0 AP cars for 2.0, and so far that gamble has not worked out. It might eventually, but it's all just a gamble at this point. I won't even get into FSD, as that is entirely a different story.

 

[RAW84]

To the best of my knowledge Tesla has never charged for an OTA software update, hence "free of charge". Yes, I paid a fee for EAP but do not expect that I will be asked to pay additional money for the EAP features that are not yet on my car but will be added (self parking, summon, auto-windshields, auto-hi/lowbeams, etc.).

I guess his point was that since you've paid for EAP how is the slow OTA rollout of these features "free"?

Exactly my point. This would be akin to me boasting about them installing the next gen seats I ordered for free. I paid for Next gen seats, they weren't available until 6 months after my car was delivered. Sure, they didn't charge me to install those seats once they became available, but lol @ me saying "they installed the next gen seats for free! Waived shipping, waived labor! Yay Tesla!"

 

[drklain]

I guess my point was yes, I paid for EAP. There are features totally unrelated to EAP (headlights and windshield wipers for example) but which are dependent on EAP sensors and software. Those features are not available to my car right now, but they will be added to my car and I will not be being one additional dollar for them. Obviously nothing is "Free"...even free supercharging (unlimited or not) isn't free...the cost is baked into the price of the car.

On the other hand, I am aware of upgrades/additional features which can be added to other cars post-delivery but there is a cost associated with them. For example, navigation database updates for my last car required going to the dealership and paying a $99 fee to get them to update the database with a USB stick. So to me, the additional capabilities my car will receive that it didn't have at delivery are "free" since I am not paying any additional money for them.

 

[Babaron]

Does anyone have a list of advantages AP 2.0 is supposed to have over 1.0? (Not counting FSD which will be years to legalize and perfect even if it can with the current hardware). I recall reading about entering and exiting freeways, but what else?

Yes, AP2 will allow auto lane change/passing on hwy and auto hwy follow/exit. That's it. Everything else AFAIK, is also in AP1.

 

[mbhforum]

Yes, AP2 will allow auto lane change/passing on hwy and auto hwy follow/exit. That's it. Everything else AFAIK, is also in AP1.

Thanks, those are nice features, but not huge game changers. The Auto lane changing/passing I like.

When your exiting off a freeway, you need to basically take control anyway to go on local roads, so your getting auto-steer for a few seconds longer. Unless I am missing something?

To me, FSD is a game changer.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Thanks, those are nice features, but not huge game changers. The Auto lane changing/passing I like.

When your exiting off a freeway, you need to basically take control anyway to go on local roads, so your getting auto-steer for a few seconds longer. Unless I am missing something?

To me, FSD is a game changer.

I think an actually working, camera based blind-spot detection is a big one in EAP/AP2 compared to the ultrasonic only AP1 blind-spot "detection". Eventually.

Of course the three-camera forward vision (with a more powerful computer) also could be assumed to offer increased detection capabilities, including better detection of stationary or laterally moving objects, as well as better traffic sign detection.

But auto-steering-wise, yes, EAP/AP2 is probably limited to just a few more scenarios than AP1. Its eventual quality and additional features may still be significantly improved.

Agree the FSD is the real potential game changer, though.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Tough question.

Had I known in October that Tesla would be this far behind and this shady about EAP, then at that time I would've not purchased a Tesla at all -- either waiting until it was a mature system (hopefully from a more mature company) or I would've bought the T8 Volvo XC90 (if I just couldn't stand my current car any longer).

Had Tesla been honest about the roadmap for EAP, then I might've still ordered in October.

If I were just now thinking of buying a Tesla, I'd not buy AP1 -- I'd worry about support for an old system. But I'm not sure I'd buy EAP -- for if I read what I see now, I'd not trust Tesla.

Alas, I now own a really expensive car built by a company I have absolutely no trust in. Great. I really value integrity and honesty -- and while I'm sure others might, ba-dump-bump, disagree, it's nonetheless souring my ownership experience greatly.

You are not alone. Tesla's overpromise and under-deliver tactic has been going on since late 2014 and frankly it has taken its toll. (Tesla has always been bad with meetings schedules, but since late 2014 they have also had a very hard time meeting specs they advertise.)

Not just EAP or AP1, P85D HP, P90D limiters (still an on-going saga) etc. issues. There are a lot of disillusioned folks in the Pack Performance and Launch Mode Limits thread for example.

 

[Electricfan]

It makes my longish work commute way more easier than what it would have been otherwise.

I too have AP1 and bought the car for exactly this purpose - my longish work commute. Mine is 35 miles, mostly highway (interstate or toll beltway).

Do you have to take control from AP1 during your commute, or does it work without any need for help? I have to grab mine regularly. At least once every trip. There are places where the freeway curves too suddenly for it to handle. One place - travelling west on I-10 where I-10 crosses state highway 59 the road both dips and curves sharply and if I left it on AP it would surely crash going at highway speed. If I slow it down to 50 mph it will handle it.

As to the question of buying AP2 - I came close to hitting the order button in Dec 16, but just couldn't do it - because I was too disappointed in AP1 and feared I would be similarly disappointed even though the website was screaming "Fully self driving equipped". SO glad I didn't. I have a reservation for a 3, and may buy it if the AP is really "enhanced" such that my commute to work would require zero input. I will DEFINITELY be buying the first fully self-driving car available, whether its a Tesla or not.

 

[suraj1194]

Do you have to take control from AP1 during your commute, or does it work without any need for help? I have to grab mine regularly. At least once every trip. There are places where the freeway curves too suddenly for it to handle. One place - travelling west on I-10 where I-10 crosses state highway 59 the road both dips and curves sharply and if I left it on AP it would surely crash going at highway speed. If I slow it down to 50 mph it will handle it.

I have a hand on the steering wheel almost all the time. I position the hand so as to generate enough torque to avoid the nags. I don't have any significant sharp curves and troughs/peaks to negotiate, and AP1 works extremely well for me. I couldn't imagine the commute without it. AP2 is still comparably useless for the same task, while AP1 keeps rock solid tracking at up to 70-75mph throughout my commute. There's even a long curving on ramp where AP seems to instinctively slow down rather than continue at freeway speed, perhaps because it has fleet learned knowledge of that ramp.

My reason to avoid AP2 is because all information so far suggests it's well behind AP1 for my use case, and that's unacceptable to me. My own car's AP1 has continuously improved since my purchase late last summer. The AP software at that time used to have the well known off ramp uncertainty issue. It no longer does that. It sees the off ramp and avoid the hunting that used to happen.

For the 2.5K I paid for AP1, its performance is spectacular, with very real day to day physical and mental energy savings. AP2 on the other hand, would not consider until it's been thoroughly proven to be at par with AP1 and then demonstrated additional features that make it worth 2x cost. IMHO that's 1-2 years away.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Thank you for the informative posts Electricfan and suraj1194.

 

[Sharkbait]

Being on the bleeding edge of technology is not always a smooth ride.

Hehe, how does the saying go? It's okay to be on the cutting edge as long as it's not your throat in front of the blade.......

 

[bjornb]

I'm the early adopter kind of guy, so AP2 for me. I only paid for EAP, and will consider paying for the FSD part if/when Tesla delivers something useful (I am not sure whether AP2 is cabable of level 5 autonomy, especially in the winter conditions here, but I think level 3/4 should be possible).

I think this is an extremely important point. When the model 3 is announced, IF it doesn't have the exact same AP hardware that the currently shipping MS/MS AP2 have then I think we AP2 owners are in for a world of hurt. The major focus of the company will be the Model 3 as it nears release and goes into production and support for an AP hardware that is not in the Model 3 will likely fall to the wayside.

Just speculation of course, but I believe the autopilot hardware in the Model 3 will be the same or very similar to AP2 so that they can reuse what they already made in AP2 on Model S/X. I think Model 3 buyers wont be as patient as us in here (early adopters vs majority buyers), and AP on Model 3 must be stable and at least give AP1 parity functionality when delivered. I dont think Tesla has the resources to support three Autopilot platforms for the time being either.

Second, the enhanced features consist of (eventually) only 2 things: Auto lane change and auto highway follow/exit. That's it; for now anyway.

Does anyone have a list of advantages AP 2.0 is supposed to have over 1.0? (Not counting FSD which will be years to legalize and perfect even if it can with the current hardware). I recall reading about entering and exiting freeways, but what else?

So this kind of answers my questions. It's all "should be better scenarios". There hasn't been any announced concrete list of features for AP EAP 2.0 that really guarantee you that it will perform any better then 1.0. It's all speculation. Sure the hardware sounds good on paper, but the software and technology need to be part of the equation and until this point, it's been a major fail.

Yes, AP2 will allow auto lane change/passing on hwy and auto hwy follow/exit. That's it. Everything else AFAIK, is also in AP1.

Tesla does decribe EAP and FSD on their autopilot page, and do say something about what improvements there will be:

Enhanced Autopilot
Enhanced Autopilot adds these new capabilities to the Tesla Autopilot driving experience. Your Tesla will match speed to traffic conditions, keep within a lane, automatically change lanes without requiring driver input, transition from one freeway to another, exit the freeway when your destination is near, self-park when near a parking spot and be summoned to and from your garage.

On-ramp to Off-ramp
Once on the freeway, your Tesla will determine which lane you need to be in and when. In addition to ensuring you reach your intended exit, Autopilot will watch for opportunities to move to a faster lane when you're caught behind slower traffic. When you reach your exit, your Tesla will depart the freeway, slow down and transition control back to you.

Autosteer+
With the new Tesla Vision cameras, sensors and computing power, your Tesla will navigate tighter, more complex roads.

Smart Summon
With Smart Summon, your car will navigate more complex environments and parking spaces, maneuvering around objects as necessary to come find you.

And there is also a FSD part as well, more here:
Autopilot
They also decribe the sensors and what use they will have.

 

[RobW2428]

Like a lot of us, I *thought* about buying a Tesla for a long time before pulling the trigger. I placed my order the day before the HW2 announcement hoping it'd be HW2, but knowing that I'd cancel it if it wasn't HW2.

Throughout the researching/ordering/waiting/obtaining/owning periods I think I've kept my expectations realistic thanks to two equally important things I did BEFORE ordering:
1) I read Elon's biography.
2) I joined this forum.

The biography makes you realize that Elon is ridiculously talented, but also that his timelines are notoriously unrealistic. He reminds me of my brother who'd make "$x" in his best month of sales and quickly state that he'd be able to make "$12x" dollars for the next year. From the pages of the biography, it sounds like Elon's timelines force a quicker than normal development period from his team, but it's rarely as quick as he predicts because he's assuming that everyone will work at the pace of their very best day.

I'm not terribly unhappy with the speed of AP2 rollout. The car has SO MANY cool things about it even without fully functioning AP2. Seems to me the main thing slowing things down is Tesla's fear of more publicity from high-speed accidents. I see it like a parent being a little too careful with a child learning to ride a bike. Seems understandable to me.

Back to OP's question...... If you're the person who generally looks on the bright side of things, I'd say go AP2. If not, strongly consider AP1. At least that's the way I see it.