If you fast charge, Tesla will permanently throttle charging

[MP3Mike]

Worth noting that even though the peak on the new 90 pack is lower the time spent at a higher charging rate is greater, so peak power may be sacrificed for over all increased charging speed.

Yep his graphs show that even though his max kW is lower now while Supercharging it maintains the kW longer so that the Supercharging is actually faster. (As long as you charge at least ~20 minutes from a low SoC.)

 

[phil0909]

To be fair, I was referring to a number of his posts. I only take issue with his continuing unnecessary use of words like 'cheerleader' and 'fanboy' here in this thread and others. It is no better than someone else dismissing opinions by calling people 'trolls' (something I just don't do). Make your argument without using words that you hope will push a button.

Well, I have not read all posts, so perhaps there are some personal attacks in the past, and that would be undesirable. In fairness, it was you who brought up cheerleading (and pompoms). I agree that using a label like "cheerleader" or "FUD", without justification to simply dismiss a poster's point of view certainly is counterproductive. However, in this case, MasterT provided a thorough explanation of why 'posts like yours' might be perceived as cheerleading. This is a far cry from simply saying "Bonnie, you are a cheerleader so I'm ignoring your perspective." It seemed to me like the guy went out of his way not to label you, but discussed in detail why such a 'post' could be perceived as erroneous.

Again, I am not saying he's right, just that MasterT's argument in this case is far from out of bounds. Sharp, but reasonably polite and respectful, and not personal. That's what we should be encouraging here. In fact, carelessly throwing around inflammatory labels like "personal attack" is the real problem.

 

[Ulmo]

To me, it's just plain silly to believe that Tesla is trying to protect the battery when all the stats prove that constant supercharger or chademo charging will never degrade it to the point that it will lose over 30% of capacity during the warranty period. In fact, the stats show it is no worse, and in some cases better, than AC charging. (I know all charging is DC charging but I refer to AC when the onboard charger does the conversion to DC.)

Woa! I'm going to stop you right there. We have lots of evidence SuperCharging is good for the battery, but none that Chademo is, unless you've seen some I haven't.

 

[NerdUno]

So all the Japanese car manufacturers chose CHAdeMO so that their batteries would degrade faster than Tesla's. Seriously?

 

[Canuck]

Woa! I'm going to stop you right there. We have lots of evidence SuperCharging is good for the battery, but none that Chademo is, unless you've seen some I haven't.

Supercharging and Chademo are one and the same. They simply bypass the onboard charger. The only difference is that Chademo tops out at 62.5 kW of direct current (but good luck finding one that charges that high) whereas supercharging tops out at 125 kW. If higher charge rates are bad for the battery, then Chademo should be better for the battery than Supercharging, but really there's no difference because of the active thermal management.

But you missed an important part of my theory: Tesla does not differentiate between the types of fast charging. It treats all fast charging as supercharger charging, and if you only use fast charging, and no AC charging, you'll get throttled back, if my theory is correct.

So all the Japanese car manufacturers chose CHAdeMO so that their batteries would degrade faster than Tesla's. Seriously?

Chademo charging a Leaf on a hot summer day is a killer to the battery. Just go over to the Leaf forums if you want to read how fast doing that will degrade your Leaf battery. But that's because the Leaf has no active thermal management.

 

[QUBO]

The following link helped me understand the ChadeMo is faster to "fill up" a battery than the Tesla SC, especially as it tops up the battery to the limit. The SC is faster at first, then slows down as it manages the distribution of power amongst all the little batteries.

Tesla Model S CHAdeMO Charging Versus Supercharging - Video

 

[JRP3]

The following link helped me understand the ChadeMo is faster to "fill up" a battery than the Tesla SC, especially as it tops up the battery to the limit. The SC is faster at first, then slows down as it manages the distribution of power amongst all the little batteries.

Tesla Model S CHAdeMO Charging Versus Supercharging - Video

That's not correct. Chademo charging also tapers down, because the car controls charging, not the Chademo or SC, and the SC is faster than Chademo.

 

[Naonak]

From my personal experience, which is quite extensive, haha, I have found CHADeMo to be slower from 0 - 50ish% SoC, then equal after that with no significant difference between the charge speeds if you start with an SoC 60% or above.

So, to me, SC is definitely great for road trips, but CHADeMo is perfectly fine for local driving, terms of charging. Yes, the adapter is a little bit of a hassle, but once you get used to using it, it's not nearly as unwieldy as it is in the beginning... Nothing beats a Tesla charging connector for ease of use, though.

 

[JRP3]

Right, once the taper drops to the level of the Chademo output there should be little to no difference in charging speed.

 

[MartinPF]

One additional idea I'd like to throw in here: From the reported statements by tesla, the conclusion seems to be "fast charging isn't good for the battery". While this may not be true for older cars / battery packs, it would seem to be true for current <100 kWh Battery packs.

Could it be that the removal of the AC charger speed upgrade for these battery packs aligns with these packs being "happier" if charged more slowly?

That would be the first theory that makes sense regarding the removal of that option.

 

[ohmman]

Let's put aside the disclosure concerns for a brief moment.

It's worth revisiting the net effect. We are talking about a theoretical 3-5 minutes of time per Supercharging session under certain conditions. This is potentially limited to certain versions of certain sizes of battery packs, and appears to be limited to vehicles with high rates of DC charging - yet another filtered portion of the population.

For the portion of the ownership who is eligible (potentially small if it is truly just 90kWh "H" packs), this is unlikely to be triggered in the majority of driving scenarios. If triggered, I believe most of that sliver is going to find that it falls under the bar of noticeability. Even for the OP, it won't happen often. He hasn't taken a trip since November that uses Supercharging, as an example.

I am not excusing anything away, and I'm definitely in favor of more transparency with this kind of limit/change. However, I do think it's worth reminding ourselves exactly what this limit means to most drivers.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

@ohmman: Fair point. The limit was according to OP progressive, though. Could it still get worse?

 

[rxlawdude]

...

No, you were not guaranteed 0-80% in 30 minutes, and I've never charged that fast in 4 years of owning a Model S. Where are you getting that from?

"Up to 170 miles in 30 minutes." - current web page. I don't have an archived version from 2015, but I'm pretty sure the 80% was mentioned.

Of course, 170 miles is about 80% of a 60. A newer 60 (limited but actually a 75 battery) could probably reach this. A "classic" 60, not so much. My 70D 80% is about 192 miles, so it's CLOSE to 30 minutes.

Would you believe 80% in 40 minutes?

 

[AnxietyRanger]

On the bright side: the lower the charge rate, that much harder to get idle fees!

 

[Naonak]

@ohmman: Fair point. The limit was according to OP progressive, though. Could it still get worse?

I am not saying it is progressive, just that it appears to be so, but with my limited dataset, I can't really make a claim one way or another.

I will say, though, that even at 5m (and that estimate seems to be low from my experience so far) that still adds 30m to an otherwise short trip... To put it another way, it adds up to 5% more time than before. This is on top of the additional charging time penalty that already existed. So a trip that takes 9 hours in an ICE now takes 12.

 

[El Boricua]

Hi everyone. I just got off the phone with Tesla with some disturbing news.

My car has approximately 30,000 miles on it. I regularly use CHADeMo to charge my car, with the occasional Supercharger charge on road trips. On my last road trip, I noticed that my supercharging rate was significantly reduced, usually staying between 75 kw and 90 kw. At first, I thought it was the station, but each Supercharger on my trip had the same behavior. So I bought my car in for service last week.

After the technicians went over the and presumably consulted with the mothership, it was determined that the car has now entered a permanent degraded mode where it will no longer allow fast charging to "prevent battery degradation." Read that again... that's right... if you use Superchargers or any DC Fast Charging, including CHADeMo, your car will eventually enter into a permanently degraded mode that will prevent you from charging your car at reasonably fast speeds.

I am, to say the least, livid. I am waiting for a call back from management, but presumably, they are going to explain to me that there is nothing they can do. This is akin to the Ludicrous launches being restricted, without warning or any communication from Tesla. But this... is much worse.

It's worse because it affects every Tesla vehicle. Every Tesla, not just Ludicrous mode Teslas, will permanently and irrevocably degrade their charging capabilities if you use DC Fast Charging of any kind more than the unusual rare occasion.

I'm honestly speechless at this. To the best of my knowledge, it has never been communicated from Tesla, until now, that using any kind of DCFC will permanently degrade your vehicle. Yes, we all know that charging to 100% regularly is a bad thing, but just regularly DC charging is also apparently just as bad, according to Tesla. But to make matters worse, it's not the battery that's degraded or causing the slow down, it's Tesla's charging algorithm that will slowly start to degrade your charging on each "count" of DCFC. According to the tech I talked to, there is an internal counter that increments each time you DC charge, and once that reaches certain thresholds, it starts restricting your top end charging ability. Presumably, if one keeps charging DC, over time, you will be restricted further and further.

This, ostensibly, to prevent Tesla from having to pay out to replace degraded batteries under their unlimited mile warranty. So over time, it will take longer and longer to charge your car. Already, this adds a significant amount of time to my road trips by restricting my charging from a previous high of 117 kw to ~90 kw on a good day. Road tripping in my Telsa already takes 2x as long as a gas car, but now it's taking even longer. I can't imagine wanting to take this car on any further road trips at this point.

Tesla needs to do something about this. This is not ok. It is not ok to remove critical functionality from the vehicle, every vehicle, without warning and without prior notice. I simply would not have purchased this car if I was informed that it would lose the ability to charge the battery over time, especially such a short time frame (1 year / 30k miles).

 

[beingpaulp]

Two questions:
1) Aren't those the 90 kWh upgradeable packs? This would contribute to the above findings.
2) CHAdeMO at home? I'd love to have a look at that setup!

I don't think my 85 is a upgradable 90, I ordered when they announced the D, and took delivery in March 2015.

I live in "new construction" and sort of at the edge of town. I have a dedicated transformer, and was able to get 3 phase power. My home is big so I was forced to get 500A service. This made building my own chademo not too difficult

 

[NerdUno]

Just to put this in context... With an ICE vehicle, wouldn't you expect the manufacturer to tell you the preferred type of fuel to use to get the best performance and longevity out of your vehicle? Hint to Tesla: electricity = fuel

 

[Skipdd]

Use It, And Lose It: 'Clandestine Counters' Cause Tesla Revolt

The issue has been picked up by Forbes. Article specifically cites this thread..

Time for Tesla to get in front of this by providing the facts to all.

 

[El Boricua]

Hi everyone. I just got off the phone with Tesla with some disturbing news.

My car has approximately 30,000 miles on it. I regularly use CHADeMo to charge my car, with the occasional Supercharger charge on road trips. On my last road trip, I noticed that my supercharging rate was significantly reduced, usually staying between 75 kw and 90 kw. At first, I thought it was the station, but each Supercharger on my trip had the same behavior. So I bought my car in for service last week.

After the technicians went over the and presumably consulted with the mothership, it was determined that the car has now entered a permanent degraded mode where it will no longer allow fast charging to "prevent battery degradation." Read that again... that's right... if you use Superchargers or any DC Fast Charging, including CHADeMo, your car will eventually enter into a permanently degraded mode that will prevent you from charging your car at reasonably fast speeds.

I am, to say the least, livid. I am waiting for a call back from management, but presumably, they are going to explain to me that there is nothing they can do. This is akin to the Ludicrous launches being restricted, without warning or any communication from Tesla. But this... is much worse.

It's worse because it affects every Tesla vehicle. Every Tesla, not just Ludicrous mode Teslas, will permanently and irrevocably degrade their charging capabilities if you use DC Fast Charging of any kind more than the unusual rare occasion.

I'm honestly speechless at this. To the best of my knowledge, it has never been communicated from Tesla, until now, that using any kind of DCFC will permanently degrade your vehicle. Yes, we all know that charging to 100% regularly is a bad thing, but just regularly DC charging is also apparently just as bad, according to Tesla. But to make matters worse, it's not the battery that's degraded or causing the slow down, it's Tesla's charging algorithm that will slowly start to degrade your charging on each "count" of DCFC. According to the tech I talked to, there is an internal counter that increments each time you DC charge, and once that reaches certain thresholds, it starts restricting your top end charging ability. Presumably, if one keeps charging DC, over time, you will be restricted further and further.

This, ostensibly, to prevent Tesla from having to pay out to replace degraded batteries under their unlimited mile warranty. So over time, it will take longer and longer to charge your car. Already, this adds a significant amount of time to my road trips by restricting my charging from a previous high of 117 kw to ~90 kw on a good day. Road tripping in my Telsa already takes 2x as long as a gas car, but now it's taking even longer. I can't imagine wanting to take this car on any further road trips at this point.

Tesla needs to do something about this. This is not ok. It is not ok to remove critical functionality from the vehicle, every vehicle, without warning and without prior notice. I simply would not have purchased this car if I was informed that it would lose the ability to charge the battery over time, especially such a short time frame (1 year / 30k miles).

Naonak,

Thanks for bringing this thorny item to the forum. Although I am an avid Tesla fan and owner of an X90D since September 2016, I have never seen the need to participate in this forum. But I am, like many, an apartment dweller that do not have charging spots in my apartment building in San Diego, CA. Even when I have been requesting UDR, the building owner, an electrical 110V for me to connect, they have dragged their feet for 4 months and the only alternatives that I have for charging are the San Diego, Qualcomm Supercharger and the Cupertino Supercharger in my weekly trips from San Diego to LA. In my last 3 supercharges I did not reached over 36kW, and even when it oscilated briefly to about 50 kW it came back to about 35 again. The last one was was just yesterday. I simply will not be able to use my $120K Tesla, that I love so much if I do not supercharge. I really need a concrete answer from Tesla about this. I will supercharge today again and will inform the forum.