If you fast charge, Tesla will permanently throttle charging

[Adrian]

On another site, a Tesla owner commented he would enjoy more time at the chargers, it's relaxing. He was not being sarcastic.

So is it actually even an issue?

Personally i'd rather be home early for a home-cooked dinner than sit extra time staring at the MAX Burger

Everyones use-case is different.

 

[JRP3]

But the key thing is, ironically, it appears they are using the BMS to ensure that high power charging will not degrade the Tesla pack excessively. This may mean a limit on the max high power charging rate, but they are still allowing high power charging.

Of course, I never suggested they weren't. But if this is a preemptive measure to prevent degradation from high power charging that means they feel that high power charging is likely to cause degradation at certain levels. We don't know if the reduction is a result of observed increase in cell resistance during charging or a counter triggered cut back to prevent actual changes in the pack.

 

[Dublin 'Eer]

• SageBrush, you act as if time at a CHAdeMo is completely lost. Up until now, I've done a lot of CHAdeMO and Supercharging while shopping at stores I'd normally frequent even if I wasn't charging. There are also times I stop and plug in as I pass by on my way home to answer a few emails so I can have that work done before getting home where I'd Abe distracted by my children and so I can spend the night with them once I arrive (yes, I work on the road a good portion of the time). Based on what I've learned this weekend, maybe I shouldn't have been doing that and will face throttled supercharging in the future. To be honest, I'm very annoyed at this point. I also have a Model 3 reservation with plans to get a fairly expensive performance version, but if Tesla is degrading cars after selling them to us, there is a very strong possibility I won't ever purchase another Tesla and may very well sell or trade in my Model S at some point in the future if this turns out to be true and isn't resolved. I'm hoping that isn't the case because I really love my car and was a huge fan of Tesla until Saturday. Now I'm not so sure, but I'm still hoping for a favorable outcome to this.

 

[Canuck]

Just show me ONE 90D with +50K miles on the odometer that can charge with a peak above 100 kW - and I will rest my case.

This is a good question. I would think a few here meet this criteria so please let us know.

 

[Evoforce]

I'd still rather buy a used 90D with a good battery and acceptable range that will get me through at least 8 years on the car and spend a few extra minutes at the supercharger. Still won't affect any at home charging at all. For me it honestly wouldn't make a difference.

I suspect this issue was raised at Tesla by reviewing data from cars over time. Sure it was discussed how best to manage the charge rate curve and maybe it's still in the review phase and they are collecting info on the cars in this range. I for one don't believe Tesla did anything nefarious here like I've seen in some comments. Sorry, just don't. I'm sure Tesla will never provide as much info as some here would like to see though. I do get that some are substantially invested in analyzing data and graphs.

I somewhat agree and somewhat don't. I am an owner of 3 electric vehicles and my son also owns an additional one. 2 Leafs and 1 Tesla and my son has a Leaf.

Early adopters tend to be in the camp of analyzing data and looking for ways to make the product better. We are investing extra time every day to help improve on the technology. We just want the facts when they are available so we can deal with those parameters and then look for workarounds and/or improvements.

I have watched companies hide information or not be forthcoming with it and that is not acceptable. Granted, any slightest hint if negativity will be jumped on and usually spun by the anti electric crowd but transparency is paramount. If the technology is great but not yet fantastic, I think most of us can deal with that, but all information known must be disclosed and in a timely manner.

Can I deal with this possible new information/revelation? Sure! It doesn't seem like a deal breaker to me but to someone it might. If the info presented is true, than we need the facts in order to mitigate it and find a solution...

 

[raphy3]

Well the media has picked up on this. Electrek ran a story on it calling it a scandal talking about lawsuits, and Forbes ran a very scathing story.

While the Forbes story seems highly biased, it makes some good points. That is, superchargers are used as a major selling point and customers were never told that using them would trigger a problem with the car. It's not on the customer to have common sense and just assume that charging will degrade the battery. It's up to Tesla to let people know up front.

Now I'm worried because I'm buying a CPO 2013 P85
I have to worry about not one but two countergate issues affecting my car. What's next?

 

[SarahsDad]

I don't have a P90D, but I do have a 3 1/2 year old P85+ which supercharged earlier today just fine after >44,000M...

 

[stopcrazypp]

Of course, I never suggested they weren't. But if this is a preemptive measure to prevent degradation from high power charging that means they feel that high power charging is likely to cause degradation at certain levels. We don't know if the reduction is a result of observed increase in cell resistance during charging or a counter triggered cut back to prevent actual changes in the pack.

Well for those of us that follow battery developments more closely, we already knew high power charging and regular AC charging would not have the same effect. I didn't interpret Tesla's message for people to not worry about supercharging to mean that there is no effect, but rather it not being enough to matter relative to other factors (and the BMS may be ensuring this will remain the case).

And the practical sense I'm alluding to is that a vague statement like that may not help a user figure out the best charging behavior (rather it would make them want to avoid supercharging). For example, is supercharging better than 24 kW or 50 kW CHAdeMO (or vise versa)? It's difficult to answer this without getting into the nuances.

Of course, I should make this clear that this is a side discussion. If this is just a natural result of the BMS factoring in all those factors, I don't expect Tesla to disclose all the nuances of the BMS. If there are counters being implemented, that's a whole different matter and should be disclosed.

 

[techmaven]

It is interesting to me that most of the issues seem to be about the 90 kWh pack, which is the first pack to have silicon added to the anode. It increases specific energy, but degradation has been an issue. Matter of fact, when they first shipped, the Supercharging experience was quite disappointing .. slightly worse than an 85 kWh pack overall. They've since changed that curve.

I'm curious if the OP can take a video of a full Supercharger session so we can plot the taper curve. While the peak might be shaved, it would be interesting to note the overall graph.

I do think that Tesla needs to be more forthcoming over this. And if they didn't limit the peak Supercharging rate, what really would be the effects? Is it the right trade-off?

 

[SarahsDad]

I agree with those posters that the practical effect of this throttling, even if correct, is pretty negligible since according to this graph as soon as you have more than 75-100 miles in the "tank" you're throttled anyway...

<a href="Finally 120KW Supercharging!">Finally 120KW Supercharging!</a>

 

[xyeahtony]

I dont think this has anything to do with repeated supercharger usage, but more with Chademo usage.

 

[Evoforce]

I dont think this has anything to do with repeated supercharger usage, but more with Chademo usage.

No, because 99.9% of U.S. Chademo at this time do not charge even near the rate of Superchargers.

 

[mishka]

I see a lot of people are saying that throttling the top rate to 90KW is not a big deal, which is true since you only get the full rate with an almost empty battery.

The important part that nobody seems to have paid attention is, the OP have mentioned that this throttling seems to be gradual. He went back to the log and saw that it first dropped to 100KW, then to 90KW. This leads to the question which is will it drop further? How much lower will it go? To me this seems to be a much more important question since all the argument about throttling at 90KW is not a big deal obviously will no longer stand if it keeps dropping significantly, say, to 60KW or even down to 30KW and that would have a much larger impact on charging time than 5 minutes.

 

[McRat]

FWIW, here is a list of top posters and their post count in this topic who have 10+ posts.

Mind you, this only gives you one facet who hogs the discussion here, but there is another aspect on the numbers of words one writes. I didn't get around to getting that data extracted, but i can tell you that proportion would be much higher here for our friend who is no.1 on this list:

Total posts: 777 (as of few minutes ago)


View attachment 226039

If you post in a thread more than 15 times, your keyboard slows down to a peak of 90 wpm?

 

[No2DinosaurFuel]

Man overboard!

No offence meant, but I'm glad I'm not one of your buddies. If I was talked out of buying my Tesla because of this issue and others my quality of life would be less since I get so much satisfaction from my vehicle.

Well I no longer recommend because of their needs. Most want to replace their ICE. As it stands, the Model S was boarder line in ICE replacement in terms of long range travel ability. Now that they released this, the Model S is no longer a ICE replacement. I guess until Tesla has a battery they can guaranteed will not slow supercharging overtime and probably faster rate of charging, I will hold my recommendations.

 

[cynix]

Hi Everyone -

The peak charging rate possible in a lithium-ion cell will slightly decline after a very large number of high-rate charging sessions. This is due to physical and chemical changes inside of the cells.

Our fast-charge control technology is designed to keep the battery safe and to preserve the maximum amount of cell capacity (range capability) in all conditions. To maintain safety and retain maximum range, we need to slow down the charge rate when the cells are too cold, when the state of charge is nearly full, and also when the conditions of the cell change gradually with age and usage.

This change due to age and usage may increase total Supercharge time by about 5 minutes and less than 1% of our customers experience this.

Tesla is not slowing down charge rates to discourage frequent Supercharging – quite the opposite. We encourage our customers to use the Supercharger network at their discretion and we committed to doubling the number of worldwide chargers just this year.

We also want to ensure that our customers have the best experience at those Superchargers and preserve as much vehicle range as possible even after frequent usage.

Thanks,

Jon

Hi Jon, your explanation is much appreciated.

I live in an apartment and am unable to install a HPWC at home due to the location of my car space and the building's wiring. Therefore I have to relying on public charging, which includes a lot of supercharging. It seems I'll be affected by this limitation even though I don't technically need to charge at a high rate, since I'm not waiting to go somewhere. Is there any way to manually limit the charging rate at a supercharger in order to reduce wear on the battery and prevent this limitation from kicking in?

 

[Electroman]

Well I no longer recommend because of their needs. Most want to replace their ICE. As it stands, the Model S was boarder line in ICE replacement in terms of long range travel ability. Now that they released this, the Model S is no longer a ICE replacement. I guess until Tesla has a battery they can guaranteed will not slow supercharging overtime and probably faster rate of charging, I will hold my recommendations.

I wish someone had adviced you before you bought. I can only wish.

 

[No2DinosaurFuel]

Your user name is No2DinosaurFuel and you might not have bought your Tesla because over time supercharging might take a few minutes longer? You'd rather drive an ICE for a few more years because one day your car might only get 90kW to start rather than 110kW when you supercharge? Talk about a loss of perspective. This thread has really jumped the shark.

The model S was meant to replace my ICE car. The supercharging is already boarder line on what I cam put up with. Now if I have to wait extra 5 minutes or maybe more later on in my ownership, then it's definitely no longer an ICE replacement. SO to answer your question, yes I rather would drive my old ICE car for a few more years if it means I won't have to slower supercharging rate down the road in ownership.

 

[No2DinosaurFuel]

I wish someone had adviced you before you bought. I can only wish.

Well this is a new development. Like I said, if someone told me about this issue before I made my purchase, I would've have said, lets wait until they get this right before I jump in. There are other *sugar* I knew about before making the purchase like the 90KWh battery is really a 86KWh with only 81KWh usable thanks to wk057. I knew about this and was cool with it. But this issue was unknown at the time.

 

[PungoteagDave]

"ODE90D, Today at 2:08 PM
Just show me ONE 90D with +50K miles on the odometer that can charge with a peak above 100 kW - and I will rest my case. All 90Ds will be throttled as they get older and when does it stop?"

I have a 12/14 P85D with 55k miles. I have driven it from Oregon to Key West and California to Maine, and use Superchargers regularly. I range charge at least twice every week to commute between homes that are 200 miles apart, often in winter conditions. My rated range has dropped from 257 to 250 (confirmed by a range charge today). My last Supercharge, performed last Monday, peaked at 114 kW. No throttling that I can see. Guessing, I have Supercharged at least 120 times. I am concerned about Tesla's tactics and am worried about battery degradation, but so far, have no complaint.