Improving Supercharger Availability $0.40 idle fee

[Shock-On-T]

Quick semi off topic... can an outsider tell if your S/X is fully charged? Does the port light signify charge status to third parties when the S/X is locked?

No, if the car is locked the charge light is always off.

 

[Mattzilla]

They unplug and move when it's done charging?

Duh? Look at the post I was responding to.

 

[AudubonB]

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you're saying? I'm probably just dense, but what does "cry-i" mean?
3 hours at $.40 a minute is $72.00, I don't understand what you mean by "only going to cost you $1.20 to park for three hours"

1. You're absolutely right and I'm completely wrong. $72.00 ≠ $1.20. Even in my book.
2. aka "For crying in the mud". I.e., "Cowboy up, cupcake"

And for all newcomers who don't read through entire threads, I reiterate my point of last night and many many posts ago: Mr. Musk's elaboration of not charging those in so-called "almost empty" SpC locations is going down the wrong path.

• Permits 'sloppy' charging habits to become even more engrained than they are after just 2 or so years of a very small number of Tesla EVs on the road. Portends extremely unhappy situation down the road. NOW is the time to stop it.
• TM has no way of knowing the other slots are not filled with ICEs. So the bad-mannered non-charging Tesla gets a free pass when he most absolutely should not

 

[AnxietyRanger]

No, how we pay for parking isn't going to change simply because the car we drive has batteries instead of a fuel tank.

Clearly we don't fuel our ICE vehicles at home unless we have a farm with a diesel tank and a vast majority of people will fuel their EVs at home for daily and short distance travelling. But none of that has anything to do with the topic at hand, which is abuse of the Supercharger Network by a certain segment of the population who either are being willfully ignorant or willfully abusive.

I guess that's where we disagree - and that's quite allright of course - in that I think this has much to do with the topic of Supercharger parking after charging has completed.

Major abusers aside, and sure there are those, the charging etiquette in most parts of the world is just starting to become defined. All sorts of establishments are trying out different things on how to charge for charging/parking while charging etc., and so is Tesla with their now-frequent changes in how Supercharging is offered. I expect many changes still, as this is being worked out and going mainstream.

IMO society in general does not yet have clearly defined, well known rules for EV charging, or what realistically works as a set of EV charging rules. So, for example, there is little concensus on how long could one reasonably park after charging has completed, before it is abuse. I can see reasonable arguments for 5 minutes, and clearly Tesla is now using that as their grace period, but personally I would see reasonable suggestions much higher than that, given the long, yet variable time (e.g. stall sharing) charging can end up taking. Frankly, I have a hard time calling it abuse if someone returns to the charger 30 minutes after completion, just as a gut feeling. EV charging is simply not that predictable nor fast enough to wait so close.

Mind you, this is not about cost for me. It is fine to have a price for this. It is quite allright to charge for idle time, IMO, when discussing EV charging pricing. The space is being reserved, there can be a price. Sure. But that is different from labelling it abuse and meting out punishment. Even then, not even there is a concensus about this I think, let alone in defining a fair price for that...

So, society in this regard is still a work in progress. Abusers will always be abusers, but there is still the middle ground to be found even for reasonable users.

 

[Shock-On-T]

I hope the money is put into more superchargers. I have been driving around all morning doing Christmas shopping. I stopped at the factory to charge. The line was 4 cars. So I decided to stop at Mt View. The line was 4 cars. So I came home dropped off the Tesla - cussed at it - jumped in the gas car and drove off.

You need home charging!

 

[Shock-On-T]

1. You're absolutely right and I'm completely wrong. $72.00 ≠ $1.20. Even in my book.
2. aka "For crying in the mud". I.e., "Cowboy up, cupcake"

And for all newcomers who don't read through entire threads, I reiterate my point of last night and many many posts ago: Mr. Musk's elaboration of not charging those in so-called "almost empty" SpC locations is going down the wrong path.

• Permits 'sloppy' charging habits to become even more engrained than they are after just 2 or so years of a very small number of Tesla EVs on the road. Portends extremely unhappy situation down the road. NOW is the time to stop it.
• TM has no way of knowing the other slots are not filled with ICEs. So the bad-mannered non-charging Tesla gets a free pass when he most absolutely should not

A small counter-point:
I have ICE-driving friends who complain to me about forever-empty EV spots that they think is a waste of space in an otherwise busy location. Having a few Tesla's lingering at the SC might send a positive message to the non-EV world that they are indeed important and shouldn't be ICE'd.

 

[TexasEV]

Any policy, or the lack of a policy as we've had thus far, is going to inconvenience somebody. I'd rather inconvenience those who have the charge they need than inconvenience those who are arriving at supercharger and need to charge to continue on their way.

If you're going to be too inconvenienced by having to move your car when it's finished charging, then perhaps you should choose another time to plug in.

 

[AudubonB]

A small counter-point:
I have ICE-driving friends who complain to me about forever-empty EV spots that they think is a waste of space in an otherwise busy location.

OK, I'll bite on this because I have some knowledge of what occurs between Tesla and parking lot owners.

• Tesla offers the site owners a monthly rental and the two parties get to negotiating. The price agreed-upon is a function of:
  • the landlord's perception of how much traffic that parking slot currently....and expected in the future...accrues
    • and, of course, how that translates into business for him - restaurant receipts, mall shopping or what have you
• AND ONLY A SUPREMELY STUPID businessman - the landlord - is not going to have a good handle on what those numbers are and how they will change with the onset of SpC sites
  • the perceptive landlord will, of course, take into consideration any spending habits he perceives will accrue from those Tesla drivers
• Now, your ICE-driving friends, to the extent they exist (and I'm not doubting that), can and by all likelihood absolutely DO have a different viewpoint from that of the landlord. It's almost axiomatic that they will. Unfortunately for them, he is the one holding the knowledge cards and the big picture - they do not.

 

[carlshome]

A few weeks ago I was at the Manteca, CA, charging station with eight stalls. I took the last stall and decided to sit in my MX and listen to the news. Within 10 minutes three more Teslas were waiting in a line. I'd never seen that before. I called Tesla just to let them know how congested this supercharger station was becoming (of course they can't see cars in a line waiting to charge). The Tesla rep looked at the site and was able to see all eight chargers. . . and was able to tell me which Teslas, in specific stalls, were almost fully charged. I thought it was amazing that they could get this information in seconds. So maybe it wouldn't be too onerous of a programming task to only charge the idle fee when a specific location is full?

Interestingly, I watched the three stalls that Tesla had told me were near full charge. All three owners showed up within minutes. And the line disappeared.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

And for all newcomers who don't read through entire threads, I reiterate my point of last night and many many posts ago: Mr. Musk's elaboration of not charging those in so-called "almost empty" SpC locations is going down the wrong path.

• Permits 'sloppy' charging habits to become even more engrained than they are after just 2 or so years of a very small number of Tesla EVs on the road. Portends extremely unhappy situation down the road. NOW is the time to stop it.
• TM has no way of knowing the other slots are not filled with ICEs. So the bad-mannered non-charging Tesla gets a free pass when he most absolutely should not

IMO there are legitimate counterpoints:

- If/when the problem is ICEing, it is those ICEs that should not get a free pass. If they are the problem, that is the problem to fix, not Teslas that have finished charging and are waiting for a reasonable time (what is reasonable is of course arguable). Attacking the sole Model S parked there in a line of ICEs, just because it is the easy thing to do for Tesla, does not really make it fair or wise.

- There is little concensus on when charging becomes sloppy or "bad-mannered", beyond the obvious e.g. "let's leave this cab here for the night before the next shift at a 24 h busy Supercharger" type of thing. I know Tesla seems to have settled at 5 minutes at this time, but realistically the expectation that a) people could monitor a lenghty, yet unpredictable charging period (stall sharing and taper) and b) be always at the beck and call of their SpC via their cell is not fully realistic. This rule will end up punishing some people that are not, to many minds, abusing anything. It will inconvenience and stress out many others. Maybe that's okay and maybe that works, but still an important distinction IMO. I'm not saying this can't work, though. It can work.

- Reasonably, an argument could be made for a longer grace period, probably up to the 30-45 minute region - or more if we accept some reasonable time to travel from and to the SpC for refreshment/rest. As a society, we generally accept a reasonable and predictable period of time for returning to things we left off for a legitimate purpose. The longer the time away, the longer the accepted returning period. For a gas tank that takes a very short time, maybe 2 minutes, paying inside is I guess generally accepted delay, but no more. For EV charging that takes 30-60 minutes, I would say a considerably longer window after compeltion - than during gas filling - could be appropriate.

- Finally, imposing these rules at deserted Superchargers (that Elon now says Tesla won't do) arguably would unnecessarily add an inconvenience to EV ownership that Superchargers are trying to overcome, not add to. People forget that some of that bad-mannered sloppiness is actually the result of having to overcome EV ownership hurdles, for example the lack of sufficient destination charging or refreshment establishments near the SpC. If a deserted SpC have help overcome some of that, taking that away for no reason other than enforcing rules would be unfortunate.

All that said, I am not against a clearly defined pricelist for EV charging kW and minutes (idle included). What I guess I would find worrisome is the enforcement of rules and punishments that could be unreasonable and unnecessary, hence the importance of discussing what actually is reasonable and also what is necessary...

While nice, the expectation that every EV that is fully charged is moved away within a couple of minutes of completion is - I fear - an unrealistic and possibly an unreasonable demand as long as charging takes longer than 5-10 minutes and is also unpredictable. Society and humans in general are not that efficient, even when we are invoking our better angels. I would say there is still work in finding and catering for a reasonable middle ground, whatever that may be.

 

[carlshome]

One more post . . . I went to Yosemite last August. I found the Tesla destination charger (just one) behind the Awahnee Hotel. But a MS was charging so I plugged into the J1722 right next to it. I came back a few hours later (my car was still not fully charged on the much slower J1722) to see the same MS still parked there. Stuffed into the drivers window jam was a note from another Tesla owner berating the guy for hogging the Tesla charger all day. I returned at the end of the day (my MX was still not fully charged) and the MS was still there. I then added my own note to the MS. The next morning the MS was moved. Hopefully the MS owner got the message.

 

[Cloxxki]

SC's should not charge beyond 90% on any but the 60kWh software limited cars. The last bit is pointless. Tesla could waive it like 2x per year, but no more. Balance your battery at home. Home is also where you do a 100% charge before a long road trip. If you're in a any sort of hurry, you'll stay away from a 90+ charge after that anyway, unless by exception neccesary.

One exception to the above could be towing. Another terrible weather at an SC without other SC's (or the owner's home location) near.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

SC's should not charge beyond 90% on any but the 60kWh software limited cars. The last bit is pointless. Tesla could waive it like 2x per year, but no more. Balance your battery at home. Home is also where you do a 100% charge before a long road trip. If you're in a any sort of hurry, you'll stay away from a 90+ charge after that anyway, unless by exception neccesary.

One exception to the above could be towing. Another terrible weather at an SC without other SC's (or the owner's home location) near.

Again this returns to the role of SpCs in overcoming hurdles related to lack of mature EV infrastructure. For example, you assume EV drivers can charge at home. Not all can. SpCs have been one tool in overcoming that current limitation. The more difficult using SpC for that becomes, that bit more difficult becomes EV adoption. Next, and this even you acknowledge, the SpC network is limited and thus smaller, faster charges are often not as sufficient as they would be if the network was more mature and more shorter breaks could replace fewer longer breaks...

That said, I am not disagreeing that overcrowding at some (California?) SpCs is equally a legitimate concern and seeking of solutions is good there as well.

 

[FlatSix911]

I hope the money is put into more superchargers. I have been driving around all morning doing Christmas shopping. I stopped at the factory to charge. The line was 4 cars. So I decided to stop at Mt View. The line was 4 cars. So I came home dropped off the Tesla - cussed at it - jumped in the gas car and drove off.

THIS is exactly the reason that Tesla must take action now to eliminate Super Charger abuse.
The long lines in California foreshadow the situation in the rest of the country once the Model 3 arrives.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

THIS is exactly the reason that Tesla must take action now to eliminate Super Charger abuse.
The long lines in California foreshadow the situation in the rest of the country once the Model 3 arrives.

This assumes Supercharger abuse is the problem and not insufficient Supercharging capacity, for example. Either or both could well be at play.

That said, a problem and solution in California may not be the right one to apply everywhere at all, and I applaud Tesla through the latest Elon tweet in acknowledging that.

California does suffer from SpC congestion, but many other places do not - at all. On the other hand, California has a more mature EV infrastructure as well as less demanding weather than pretty much the entire rest of the world. And more California Tesla owners live in houses vs. apartments. So SpCs in California serve a bit different purpose. The fact that people could drive to many, many Superchargers just to see where is room is unheard of in much of the world, where that one distant Supercharger must be used to the full once reached, because there are no others for a long while...

Applying California rules to everywhere would mean that elsewhere non-existent congestion would be "fixed" while simultaneously attacking the weather issue and lack of charging infra solutions that SpCs are helping with elsewhere...

One shoe does not fit everywhere. I am happy Tesla sees that.

 

[Scotty]

As an owner who has 89,000 miles in 26 months, I think this is a knee-jerk reaction to a situation that needs to be addressed.

1) I have not been able to set my iPhone messaging to give me an audible alert when charging is complete. Having an audible alert that needs acknowledgement would certainly help me. As an owner who just returned from a California to Florida round trip, I do sit in the car, at times, and take a nap. The audible click when charging is complete isn't enough to permeate my rest. Sure, the car shuts down after a certain number of minutes, but it still can take a while longer for the climate control shutdown to awaken me. The ability to get audible annunciation within the vehicle, and audible alerts that must be acknowledged would be a step in the right direction.

2) Model 3's will be a game changer, but they aren't here yet. How about a better game plan for providing feedback for stalls in use, and time left for charging? Let's encourage Tesla to provide stall info.... are they all in use? Sure, it's not totally up-to-date,when a Tesla pulls in 30 seconds before you do and takes the last open stall.

3) I don't want this billed time frame to be initiated based on 'close to complete'. As we all know, charging rates, and hence, charging times, can change if another Tesla is plugged into the shared Supercharger you're plugged into.

4) When I ordered my Tesla,there was no restriction on Supercharger use. The post about fees when charging within 50 miles doesn't work for me. If it's 40 miles home and I've got 20 miles of range, you can do the math.

5) I notice quite a few stalls are used in Dublin and Rocklin by vehicles in for service, or Tesla dealer-plated cars. Will Tesla figure out a way to alleviate these from taking up valuable stalls?

Scotty

 

[Cloxxki]

Again this returns to the role of SpCs in overcoming hurdles related to lack of mature EV infrastructure. For example, you assume EV drivers can charge at home. Not all can. SpCs have been one tool in overcoming that current limitation. The more difficult using SpC for that becomes, that bit more difficult becomes EV adoption. Next, and this even you acknowledge, the SpC network is limited and thus smaller, faster charges are often not as sufficient as they would be if the network was more mature and more shorter breaks could replace fewer longer breaks...

That said, I am not disagreeing that overcrowding at some (California?) SpCs is equally a legitimate concern and seeking of solutions is good there as well.

Agreed.
I'm actually one that has been mentioning that Model 3 buyers to a lesser degree will have access to a home charger. In my country of The Netherlands, a majority of drivers do not know where they'll park when they are driving home. If lucky, it's within 50-100m from you're front door. If less lucky, somewhere around the corner. Unlucky, it can be a 5-minute walk.
Driveways and indoor parking are basically for the 1% of the country. Those people will be the most likely to get a Model 3. But after the first wave of innovators, people buying them will end to parking "somewhere" in their neighborhood. Charging? If very lucky, at work. Otherwise, at a public charger. A lot will be needed soon.

 

[FlatSix911]

This should help ... Tesla unveils its 2017 Supercharger network expansion plans

Last night, Tesla updated the Supercharger network map on its website to show its expansion plans for next year. With only a few weeks left in 2016, the company had fallen behind on its 2016 expansion plans for its network of DC fast-charging stations and the current Supercharger maps, which should have looked like the “2016 maps”, were missing several stations. Tesla Supercharger “2016 maps” are replaced with “2017 maps” showing some new Supercharger expansions in Hawaii, Mexico, Taiwan, Korea and New Zealand.

North America:
In North America, Tesla announced new Superchargers in Hawaii and Mexico, and it pushed to next year expansions to extend the coverage in the US and Canada that were originally planned for 2016. We are talking about more extensive coverage on the west and east coast, as well as expansions in states currently without any stations, like North Dakota or Arkansas, that were supposed to get some Superchargers in 2016, but they are now on the 2017 map.

Here are the relevant maps per region. The first map represents the current Supercharger stations. The second map represents the planned network for 2016 that Tesla has now abandoned and finally, the last map is the new planned network for 2017:


Current 2016

Planned 2016 – abandoned

Planned 2017

Europe:
Not much as changed from the 2016 map of planned Superchargers in Europe to the planned 2017 map. More stations are planned for central Europe and France, but expansion in East Europe and along the Mediterranean sea that were originally planned for 2016 have now been pushed to next year:


Current 2016

Planned 2016 – abandoned

Planned 2017

Asia-Pacific:
Same thing for Asia, Australia, and New Zealand. The new map only confirms Supercharger expansions that were announced in the last few months after the market introductions of Tesla in Taiwan, South Korea, and New Zealand. Tesla will also continue its expansions in China and Australia.


Current 2016

Planned 2016 – abandoned

Planned 2017

Tesla currently operates over 4,800 Superchargers at over 769 locations around the world. The company aims to almost double that number by the end of next year in preparation for the Model 3 hitting the market during the second half of 2017 and in large numbers in 2018. In order to accelerate and finance the deployment of more stations, Tesla announced last month the end of unlimited free Supercharging and the change to ‘Supercharging credit program’, which gives owners roughly 1000 miles of free charging at Superchargers each year. After reaching the threshold, owners will have to buy ‘Supercharger Credits’. Also, it doesn’t want to make money on its recent $.40/minute overstay fee on chargers, it will make some. More importantly it will incent people to free up stations, allowing more people to use them.

 

[Troy]

I think Tesla made 3 mistakes when implementing idle fees:

1. They should have asked for credit card info so they can process the fees automatically. Paying during service visits months later seems much less effective and sounds like something you can negotiate.

2. Applying idle fees only after 5 minutes was too aggressive. If they had said 10 or 15 minutes, fewer people would have complained and the tweak Elon mentioned wouldn't be necessary.

3. Not applying idle fees unless "most bays are occupied" (these are Elon's exact words), is going to create more problems.

• For example, there are people who leave their cars plugged in overnight or completely abandon it for weeks. See the examples below. They could argue that the supercharger was mostly unoccupied when they left their car.
• If somebody leaves the car overnight and idle fees start only after most stalls are occupied, that dramatically reduces the fees they have to pay. For example, let's say the person plugged in at midnight and then went to bed in a nearby hotel. The supercharger was full between 7:00 and 8:30 am, causing delays for many people but this person would have to pay only $18. It doesn't seem worth waking up early to move the car, plus maybe the station won't be more than 50% occupied anyway. They might as well roll the dice.
• Another problem is, as @AudubonB pointed out, if half of the stalls are iced by gas cars, those will appear as unoccupied in Tesla's system. Therefore nobody would ever pay idle fees even if there is a long waiting line.

Tesloop is leaving vehicles at Supercharging stations overnight, and then profiting on that electricity • /r/teslamotors

Tesla Model S that won Pikes Peak reportedly abandoned at Supercharger for weeks

 

[MP3Mike]

TM has no way of knowing the other slots are not filled with ICEs. So the bad-mannered non-charging Tesla gets a free pass when he most absolutely should not

I think they need to account for offline stalls as well, which they may not know about. It would just be simpler to have a single uniform policy so there is no question about what happens.