Improving Supercharger Availability $0.40 idle fee

[AnxietyRanger]

The thing is, with a five minute grace period and unpredictable supercharging speeds, this penalty will hit a number of people who are not really guilty of anything.

- Stall sharing can dramatically increase or decrease your charging speed
- Poorly working/older/newer Superchargers can have varying charge speeds
- The taper makes charge estimation difficult
- The estimated charge time on the Tesla screen at start is not reliable, but people will trust it...

Expect increased stress at Superchargers - also expect increased charging to 100% to avoid that. The panic-stricken, smartphone-in-hand running Tesla owner the new but of jokes. Expect surprise bills when the estimated time is halved by the guy next to you leaving. I also expect that if these rules get applied, many people applauding them on this thread will also get hit by these charges even though they will make a reasonable effort to avoid them. And they are the technical, Tesla-knowledgeable people... think about the non-techies...

To ponder this, a much more reasonable implementation could be for Tesla to state return time when you start charging - or charge by the minute for any Supercharger usage. Those would be predictable as you would know beforehand the relation of time and money. An imperfect but better-than-current solution would also be increasing the grace period to account for the unpredictability, at least to 30 minutes.

Now the model requires constant monitoring, remaining nearby due to need for constant monitoring, as well as monitoring for stall usage to understand when an exception might be there. What will the family that may already be suspicious of EVs say when you refuse to take them to a restaurant during charging because you may not get back in time for an unpredictable completion? Sit them on the curb and see EV appreciation grow?

Finally, it could lessen the Supercharger's ability to serve as a solution to some lack of maturity issues with EV charging networks, such as serving as destination charging in deserted areas. I for one am happy Tesla seems to recognize this with their amendment. Maybe the 8 pm to 9 am scenario is extreme, but the 1 am to 6 am scenario at a deserted hotel yard is already much more reasonable... the Supercharger there is helping EV adoption by allowing a customer to charge while getting some shuteye... eventually there will be destination charging, but not yet...

Things will get better as the EV infrastructure evolves, of course, but the seeming quest to add punishments and all sorts of arbitrary rules to Supercharger usage may not be the saving grace people think it will be. If Supercharging becomes a stressful and unpredictably costly experience to the mainstream, it may hamper adoption and hurt the Supercharger brand. Those stalls have been a beacon of free and Tesla owner privilege (encouraging Tesla ownership), they will be seen quite differently if they become seen as a private parking ticket trap.

Frankly, following this discussion and the talk of $300 parking added to your next service bill makes me really think Tesla should just start charging by the minute for Supercharging to a credit card on file. For all Supercharging, a known, easy to understand rate for staying there. At least that would be very easy and predictable to understand. Not a surprise bill of thousands at your next service appointment for missing some hard to understand, unpredictable deadline many times over - that will not be going down well with the mainstream.

EV charger is a not a gasoline pump. Due to the long and unpredictable fill-up time, some relative-to-that amount of staying there after completion is normal and reasonable - it is not parking, it is a natural part of the charging process. I would say that reasonable number is more than 5 minutes. Like someone said, even the airport parking gives you 15-20 minutes to leave after payment is made. The length of a reasonable stay should at the very least be relative of what can reasonably be expected from a reasonably diligent, non-technical person.

 

[iffatall]

The Android app does not even make notification sounds. I always make that extra effort to vacate a spot as soon as charged, but Tesla should cover all bases before taking such steps. The app should be more functional, and notifications more configurable.

Also, I think if Tesla is not doing it for money, they should apply this only when all functional stalls at the location are in use. Surely they have this info.

Elon MuskVerified account‏@elonmusk
@TeslaMotors We are going to modify this so that people only pay a fee if most bays are occupied. If the site is basically deserted, no problem to park.

Tesla, you always find a way to shut me up when I begin complaining!

 

[KJD]

As an owner who has 89,000 miles in 26 months, I think this is a knee-jerk reaction to a situation that needs to be addressed.

1) I have not been able to set my iPhone messaging to give me an audible alert when charging is complete. Having an audible alert that needs acknowledgement would certainly help me.

You could just call up the app on your phone and inquire on the charge status at any time.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

One more thought: A lot of people have said Supercharger vistis are a stress reliever on long trips. I wonder how that will work for the breaks when there is a counter to cost penalties after an unknown amount of minutes...

 

[KJD]

The thing is, with a five minute grace period and unpredictable supercharging speeds, this penalty will hit a number of people who are not really guilty of anything.
- Stall sharing can dramatically increase or decrease your charging speed

Nothing stopping you from using the phone app to inquire on state of charge at any time.
It is really very easy to figure out how long till the charge is complete.

The only time supercharging is stressful is showing up at the location to find all of the stalls full.

 

[ChadFeldheimer]

Those who don't like the waiver for parking at supercharging stations that are mostly deserted should organize a local club of like minded members.

Whenever any member spots a Tesla parking at a mostly deserted supercharger, send a message to the rest of the group who can then mobilize to consume the remaining spots - thus ensuring a parking fee is charged to the parker!


Regarding parking fees surprising a new owner of a used car: seems like the parking fees would be tied to your Tesla account and not the car.

 

[James Anders]

Regardless of a Supercharger's appearance of non-use, emptiness, or even being tumbleweed ridden; EV owners should never consider them parking spaces. They are charging spaces.

Otherwise, by that same logic you might as well use all of those empty handicap spaces, since they're almost always empty, and so conveniently located near a destination's front door.

Handicap spaces allow those with disabilities the opportunity to get out and live their lives. For EVs to gain greater adoption, we have to collectively make space available for other Tesla owners so that we can all travel knowing that there is a charger available. Otherwise, as some have, they drop the Tesla at the house, and get in their ice to go about living there lives. One time leads to two, two to three, and three to selling off the car completely.

Interesting point about handicapped spaces.

So what about handicapped Tesla owners? These people need more time. Let's say the average stay at a SC is 40 minutes. To get to a restaurant, eat, pay and return to the car is likely to take longer than 40 minutes for someone who is handicapped.

The 5 minute window is too short. They might as well not bother putting SCs near restaurants/shopping centers if you really can't spend the time. And no, coming back and moving isn't really a good solution. Particularly for someone who is walking impaired.

There shouldn't be special allowances for handicapped people but it does make sense to increase the 5 minute window to at least 15 minutes.

 

[ZAKEEUS]

Can Tesla text alerts to your phone if you don't have the app, or if your app is not working? I was told the app could take a couple days before it started working. At our first supercharger stop, I tested the app, it was working but I had already reached 80% and that is how I learned about the new $0.40/minute fee after fully charged. I don't have a problem with moving my car when it's ready, but I wish the app wouldn't bother me if none of the other stalls are being used.

 

[AudubonB]

re: 5 MINUTE WINDOW

I'm hoping against hope that all the whining regarding the 5 minute grace period is coming only from posters who haven't read Tesla's note.

ALL THE FOLLOWING ought be considered:

• Operator knows of the overall policy, and will be taking that into consideration upon leaving the vehicle to charge
• Operator's Tesla App can be consulted at any time to learn of charging level
• Tesla actively warns operator when charge is nearing completion. We haven't learned specifically how much of a time window, but ten or fifteen minutes is a reasonable amount to assume*

All the above is an absolutely ample set of warnings for any reasonable circumstances. There is no justification for pushing out the grace period.


*From Tesla Motors:

How do I know when I’ve incurred an idle fee?
The Tesla mobile app notifies you both when charging nears completion and again when fully done. Additional notifications will alert you when idle fees are incurred.

 

[pekap]

My biggest issue with this whole announcement is that once again it seems like a rash, reactive, hastily put together, and poorly thought through policy by Tesla. While I'm glad they listen to customers and modify their policies as appropriate, why were scenarios such as deserted superchargers not more carefully considered in-house before releasing the new policy?

Here's a few thoughts on how they could frame a balanced policy:
- Have common sense and common courtesy. If it's a busy supercharger (based on inspection and/or historical information - see fourth bullet) stay near your car whenever possible, particularly when you near your required charge level.
- 10 minutes grace period. I know many disagree, but if a five minute policy is necessary then I feel the problem lies in having too few chargers, not Tesla owners abusing charging privilege.
- Maximum of three total hours in any SC parking spot. I personally think any type of lengthy overnight charging should not use SC's but level 2 chargers.
- Give owners access to more information. The app, website, and in-car charging info screen should provide information such as currently occupied stalls, preferred charge stall for highest speed (many owners are unaware of the A and B shared power), historical average and peak number of charging vehicles during your arrival time.
- More notification options available. A smartphone shouldn't be required to own a Tesla. Have options for sms, automated phone calls, and other notification solutions. Owners with smartphones may prefer sms over Tesla app notifications as well. Also, have more user-selectable notification options. Could include: notify when SC station hits the busy idle-fee payment threshold (50% occupied or whatever it is); notify when 10-minute grace period begins; notify when idle-fee charging has begun

 

[Beckler]

Because of

"Is there an upper limit on the idle fee?
No, idle fees will continue to accrue if the car is not moved within five minutes after the charge session is complete."

There starts to be no point in picking up your car after around 4 months sitting idle, since the fee has accrued to around US$65k and you might as well buy a new car. This may in fact be Tesla's true motivation - to double sales.

 

[KJD]

Have some common sense and move your car when its done charging.

The 5 minute grace period is fine. No need to change anything there.

Why would anyone need 3 hours at a supercharger spot? That is crazy.

 

[Beckler]

As usual on TMC, hundreds of really detailed, pointless posts about nothing, in response to something really simple. People have huge amounts of time to waste I guess.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

The thing is, with a five minute grace period and unpredictable supercharging speeds, this penalty will hit a number of people who are not really guilty of anything.

- Stall sharing can dramatically increase or decrease your charging speed
- Poorly working/older/newer Superchargers can have varying charge speeds
- The taper makes charge estimation difficult
- The estimated charge time on the Tesla screen at start is not reliable, but people will trust it...

Expect increased stress at Superchargers - also expect increased charging to 100% to avoid that. The panic-stricken, smartphone-in-hand running Tesla owner the new but of jokes. Expect surprise bills when the estimated time is halved by the guy next to you leaving. I also expect that if these rules get applied, many people applauding them on this thread will also get hit by these charges even though they will make a reasonable effort to avoid them. And they are the technical, Tesla-knowledgeable people... think about the non-techies...

To ponder this, a much more reasonable implementation could be for Tesla to state return time when you start charging - or charge by the minute for any Supercharger usage. Those would be predictable as you would know beforehand the relation of time and money. An imperfect but better-than-current solution would also be increasing the grace period to account for the unpredictability, at least to 30 minutes.

Now the model requires constant monitoring, remaining nearby due to need for constant monitoring, as well as monitoring for stall usage to understand when an exception might be there. What will the family that may already be suspicious of EVs say when you refuse to take them to a restaurant during charging because you may not get back in time for an unpredictable completion? Sit them on the curb and see EV appreciation grow?

Finally, it could lessen the Supercharger's ability to serve as a solution to some lack of maturity issues with EV charging networks, such as serving as destination charging in deserted areas. I for one am happy Tesla seems to recognize this with their amendment. Maybe the 8 pm to 9 am scenario is extreme, but the 1 am to 6 am scenario at a deserted hotel yard is already much more reasonable... the Supercharger there is helping EV adoption by allowing a customer to charge while getting some shuteye... eventually there will be destination charging, but not yet...

Things will get better as the EV infrastructure evolves, of course, but the seeming quest to add punishments and all sorts of arbitrary rules to Supercharger usage may not be the saving grace people think it will be. If Supercharging becomes a stressful and unpredictably costly experience to the mainstream, it may hamper adoption and hurt the Supercharger brand. Those stalls have been a beacon of free and Tesla owner privilege (encouraging Tesla ownership), they will be seen quite differently if they become seen as a private parking ticket trap.

Frankly, following this discussion and the talk of $300 parking added to your next service bill makes me really think Tesla should just start charging by the minute for Supercharging to a credit card on file. For all Supercharging, a known, easy to understand rate for staying there. At least that would be very easy and predictable to understand. Not a surprise bill of thousands at your next service appointment for missing some hard to understand, unpredictable deadline many times over - that will not be going down well with the mainstream.

EV charger is a not a gasoline pump. Due to the long and unpredictable fill-up time, some relative-to-that amount of staying there after completion is normal and reasonable - it is not parking, it is a natural part of the charging process. I would say that reasonable number is more than 5 minutes. Like someone said, even the airport parking gives you 15-20 minutes to leave after payment is made. The length of a reasonable stay should at the very least be relative of what can reasonably be expected from a reasonably diligent, non-technical person.

The key issue I see with the idle fee is that at some point when traveling you'll want to stop to eat, and a meal can take longer than it takes to charge.

All other stops are people killing time so they receive the alert and head to the car.

I do agree that a 5 minute grace period isn't really sufficient, but I don't think that 15-20 minutes should be necessary. You receive the alert, finish your current transaction, and head back to the car. Given the length of charging events, there should be plenty of time to get the important stuff done.

I expect that the people who'll end up complaining about idle fees would largely be the same kind of people who're always late getting back to the tour bus.

 

[James Anders]

Have some common sense and move your car when its done charging.

The 5 minute grace period is fine. No need to change anything there.

Why would anyone need 3 hours at a supercharger spot? That is crazy.

Somewhere between 5 min and 3 hours there exists a reasonable happy medium. I've rarely stopped for a meal on the road that took longer than 3 hours. But if there's a long walk to the restaurant it's just cutting it a bit close.

With 5 minutes and the variability of charge time and walk time...then Tesla should only put SC in truly fast food drive thru locations and forget the bit about stopping for a meal or shopping."

 

[Pwdr Extreme]

From the Tesla website: "Stations are strategically placed to minimize stops during long distance travel and are conveniently located near restaurants, shopping centers, and WiFi hot spots."

That certainly implies enjoying my temporary stop, not staying within 5 minutes of my car, constantly checking my phone. From what I am learning as others have pointed out, the estimated time to charge really isn't all that accurate. If I pull up at 20% needing to charge to 90% to make my next destination because I am traveling (as the superchargers were intended for) my charge estimate will be somewhere around an hour, let's say 1:15. I'm absolutely going to take that time and enjoy dinner at a nearby restaurant. Surely an hour and 15 minutes is plenty of time to walk 10 minutes, dine, and walk 10 minutes back to my car. Now let's say the charging speed increases because I'm no longer sharing power with the only other Tesla who was parked next to me and my car is done in 50 minutes. Now I've already planned to be back in the original timeframe and no, I don't feel I should have get up and walk 20 minutes round trip to move my car to avoid being charged, thus ruining dinner. Does that make me inconsiderate? I planned around what my car originally told me, then things changed beyond my control, so no, I don't feel that makes me inconsiderate. Should I be charged $.40 a minute for the 25 minute difference between what the estimate was vs. the actual charging time? I don't feel I should.

Certainly this is one example of a relatively rare instance, but most people on here complaining are also complaining about relatively rare instances of superchargers being full and having to wait. I say relatively rare because of the 769 supercharger locations, there is most likely a problem in 50-75 of them in California and a few other major metropolitan areas.

Looking at the location of everyone's name that is doing the most complaining about congestion, California is by far the biggest problem area. I have to wonder how many of you complaining about the full supercharger actually left home with a full battery? I'd be willing to bet, and this is strictly my estimation, at least 50% of the vehicles at the superchargers are there strictly for the free electricity because they are too cheap to charge at home. Sure there are people who live in apartment complexes that can't charge at home, and sure there are people traveling further than their initial charge will get them, they are the other 50%. Now if we removed the 50% free loaders, and fined the people parked idle for over 30 minutes, I'd be willing to bet the problem would magically fix itself. And the other 90% of us would most likely have no problem whatsoever with a "blanket 30 minute rule"

Although I still feel Tesla should develop software that will notify us in the normally desolate rural areas if the charger is becoming full. Even though I may have 30 minutes to finish shopping or whatever before incurring fees, I will happily rush to move my car so some other traveler can charge.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Nothing stopping you from using the phone app to inquire on state of charge at any time.
It is really very easy to figure out how long till the charge is complete.

The only time supercharging is stressful is showing up at the location to find all of the stalls full.

Obviously this policy is forcing the use of the app, let's hope it always works and you have your compatible phone with you and charged.

Let me repeat: There are multiple reasons why Supercharging speed in unpredictable (shared stalls, unreliable SpC units, tapering calculations). There is no way for a user to know beforehand when must they return with a 5 min grace. It is not a question of ease, it is simply impossible.

Thus indeed one must stay at the car or follow the app while remaining nearby the car to react to the changes in charging speed.

That is Supercharging reality going forward. No one hour lunch break relaxation with the family, if you want to avoid penalties. If that guy at the stall next to you leaves, you are late. Better keep eyes on that phone...

 

[ohmman]

The app already tells you when Supercharging is nearly complete. I get a push notification at least 15 minutes before it's complete. What am I missing?

 

[Owner]

Moab is different because the Supercharger is on the hotel's premises, and the normal parking area gets full at night. Wouldn't that be strange to be unable to park at the hotel because I must leave its four Supercharger stalls vacant? If I found a spot, wouldn't ICE owners get upset at me because I took "their" spot rather than park at the empty Tesla spots?

The Moab Utah supercharger is the most unusual supercharger (hey I've been to over 100 so I know of what I speak).

Its an older supercharger, I've been there several times on two different trips to Moab. Great location in the theory of the early times, now a really bad choice. The hotel parking lot is not very big, and almost doesn't seem to be large enough to accommodate all people in that motel. The chargers are not in the very back section either. But may be the furthest from the doors, so if you are lugging suitcases, you may wish to park in the back.

On top of that, the motel is well located in the small town. There is a restaurant that is pretty good that shares the parking lot, and so mid day the parking lot is not particularly empty.

Anyways, I've seen this spot ICEd several times. 4 Tesla spots, a crowded parking lot at peak times, sleepy, cranky, hungry people and with no one charging, I can see why ICEing would happen.

Outside of this place, I've only seen ICEing very rarely and at similar remote locations.

The point being, for odd superchargers like Moab, you can't really include them in a general policy.

 

[scottm]

As far as collecting fees goes... leave it up to the person owing to figure out how.

Tesla just has to bill .. and sit back... people will figure a way to pay quickly, when the utility is shut off for them.

No supercharging on a balance owing account for the car. Simple as that.

Tesla could go the extra mile with a nice little reminder on the dash that SC is not currently (ha!) available for this car... contact Tesla 1-800.. this visible notice would also serve to warn prospective buyers of the SC candidacy of the car.

Revenue will flow in.