Installing a NEMA outlet on a hard wired 240v hot tub circuit?

[Amarine88]

So I'm in a bit of a weird situation and I wanted to get some opinions before I approach an electrician again...

We've just moved into a rental, and while we were prepared to pay to install a NEMA 14-50 in the garage, the electrician discovered that the breaker box was completely full and quoted us $3,000 to upgrade it. Given that this is a one-year rental, we didn't think it was worth the cost and are currently using 120v charging for the next year.

I have a Y reservation, but I'm very hesitant to move our family to all electric without a level 2 charger as there aren't any Superchargers close by. I'm trying to find a creative solution that doesn't break the bank.

The house does have an inactive hot tub hooked up to a dedicated 240v circuit. That circuit runs through the garage. Would it be theoretically possible to install a NEMA outlet on that circuit so we don't need to install a new circuit in the breaker box? Obviously we couldn't run the hot tub and charge the car at the same time, but in theory, we could add the outlet without fully disabling the hot tub for the owner and without adding a new breaker/circuit.

Does anyone have any experience or ideas so I can reach back out to our electrician?

 

[roblab]

If it were me, I'd already have it wired. I'd put in a 240 v outlet, and next to it have a 240 v plug going to the hot tub. That way you couldn't charge AND run the hot tub at the same time, and a future owner would have an outlet for their new Model Y.

 

[trm2]

Don’t be surprised when an electrician tells you no. A hot tub likely has a 20 amp circuit (pump) and a 30 amp (heater) with a shutoff outside somewhat near the tub. I don’t think that circuit can be anywhere but into the main box.

 

[Amarine88]

Don’t be surprised when an electrician tells you no. A hot tub likely has a 20 amp circuit (pump) and a 30 amp (heater) with a shutoff outside somewhat near the tub. I don’t think that circuit can be anywhere but into the main box.

Luckily there is a 50a breaker labeled "Spa" with the breakers in the garage. There's no guarantee that it's labeled accurately, but it gives me hope!

At this point, worst case scenario is I'm stuck where I am now, so it's still worth asking, even if it's a no.

 

[Hawnboy]

Q1: Where is the main panel located?
Q2: do you plan to use the hot tub ANYTIME in the future?

My thoughts if I were you. If the main breaker panel is located in the garage and you are positively certain that there's no chance in the world that you'll be using that hot tub, I'd remove the hot tub wires from the it's breaker and run your 14-50 charger from there.
Just remembered to remove your 14-50 charger from that circuit and restore the hot tub back to the it's original breaker when you move out of the rental.

 

[Hawnboy]

Or find another electrician!

 

[Hawnboy]

Luckily there is a 50a breaker labeled "Spa" with the breakers in the garage. There's no guarantee that it's labeled accurately, but it gives me hope!

At this point, worst case scenario is I'm stuck where I am now, so it's still worth asking, even if it's a no.

Turn the spa ON. Go back to the panel and turn the "50amp Spa" circuit OFF! Head back to the spa and confirm it's off. If it is, you that breaker!

 

[Rocky_H]

Well, two options, depending on whether you want to leave that hot tub connected at all.

1. Just steal the circuit. If you really don't plan to use the hot tub, you can certainly just disconnect the wires that go out to the hot tub stuff and use that breaker to run a new line to your outlet for the car charging.

2. Put in a toggle/throw switch. If you do still want to leave the possibility of using either one, you can put a throw switch on the line and split it into the connection to the hot tub or the connection to the car charging outlet. This would still satisfy the NEC requirement that only one device is connected on the line at a time.

 

[qdeathstar]

So I'm in a bit of a weird situation and I wanted to get some opinions before I approach an electrician again...

We've just moved into a rental, and while we were prepared to pay to install a NEMA 14-50 in the garage, the electrician discovered that the breaker box was completely full and quoted us $3,000 to upgrade it. Given that this is a one-year rental, we didn't think it was worth the cost and are currently using 120v charging for the next year.

I have a Y reservation, but I'm very hesitant to move our family to all electric without a level 2 charger as there aren't any Superchargers close by. I'm trying to find a creative solution that doesn't break the bank.

The house does have an inactive hot tub hooked up to a dedicated 240v circuit. That circuit runs through the garage. Would it be theoretically possible to install a NEMA outlet on that circuit so we don't need to install a new circuit in the breaker box? Obviously we couldn't run the hot tub and charge the car at the same time, but in theory, we could add the outlet without fully disabling the hot tub for the owner and without adding a new breaker/circuit.

Does anyone have any experience or ideas so I can reach back out to our electrician?

Yeah, that shouldn’t be an issue. I would take out and keep the gfci breaker that might be in the disconnect and swap it with a normal breaker. You would need to take off the load wires going to the hot tub.

 

[qdeathstar]

2. Put in a toggle/throw switch. If you do still want to leave the possibility of using either one, you can put a throw switch on the line and split it into the connection to the hot tub or the connection to the car charging outlet. This would still satisfy the NEC requirement that only one device is connected on the line at a time.

I think this probably isn’t a good idea. A 50 amp three position switch is likely to be expensive, and ev chargers don’t play well with gfci protected circuits, which is what a hot tub would require.

 

[user212_nr]

Yes, steal the circuit or add a toggle switch sounds good.

I'd add you should get yourself another electrician. This guy quoted you $3,000 and didn't offer you any cheaper options, even though it it a rental - don't expect him to be reasonable. He's basically saying he doesn't want your work unless he can make a small fortune. If you keep looking, you can find someone more affordable.

 

[IROAR]

I did the exact thing with an abandoned 50 amp steam shower circuit. Works fine. Should be minimal cost and will increase the landlords rental value.

 

[ralph142]

First step after you line up options: make sure the landlord is ok with the change and how it’s done. I take a dim view of people changing my electrical or plumbing without my explicit permission, especially if they do it themselves, or get their “brother in law the contractor” involved, lol. They might even share costs with you.

 

[Rocky_H]

I think this probably isn’t a good idea. A 50 amp three position switch is likely to be expensive

Relative to an electrician's rate for just showing up at your house? Nah, not really. Here's the three position throw switch that can handle up to 60 amps, and it's $178. That's more than nothing, but not outrageously expensive.

GE 60 Amp 240-Volt Non-Fused Indoor General-Duty Double-Throw Safety Switch-TC35322 - The Home Depot

and ev chargers don’t play well with gfci protected circuits, which is what a hot tub would require.

That's partially true. New GFCI breakers performing the way they are supposed to within their published specifications shouldn't have a problem with an EVSE. But GFCI breakers do have very high tendencies to degrade and get kind of crummy when they get old and trip too easily from the ground check that EVSEs do, so yes, they are a bit more prone to issues than just some simple appliance like a lamp.

But can't be helped if someone is planning to plug in a mobile connector cord anyway, since any outlet for EV charging requires a GFCI breaker now. The only way to get out of that would be to hard wire a wall connector, but weren't you the one just complaining about "expensive"? Having to buy a $500 wall connector to avoid the GFCI breaker seems "expensive".

 

[qdeathstar]

Relative to an electrician's rate for just showing up at your house? Nah, not really. Here's the three position throw switch that can handle up to 60 amps, and it's $178. That's more than nothing, but not outrageously expensive.

GE 60 Amp 240-Volt Non-Fused Indoor General-Duty Double-Throw Safety Switch-TC35322 - The Home Depot


That's partially true. New GFCI breakers performing the way they are supposed to within their published specifications shouldn't have a problem with an EVSE. But GFCI breakers do have very high tendencies to degrade and get kind of crummy when they get old and trip too easily from the ground check that EVSEs do, so yes, they are a bit more prone to issues than just some simple appliance like a lamp.

But can't be helped if someone is planning to plug in a mobile connector cord anyway, since any outlet for EV charging requires a GFCI breaker now. The only way to get out of that would be to hard wire a wall connector, but weren't you the one just complaining about "expensive"? Having to buy a $500 wall connector to avoid the GFCI breaker seems "expensive".

You would need to wire that before the hot tub disconnect. So you would need to remove the disconnect, install that, reinstall the disconnect, and add wiring for the ev charger. Also, you are not required to install a gfci on an ev charger as there aren’t any localities on the 2019 nec code book yet. Generally localities run 1-2 cycles behind the current code.

I happen to be an electrician.


If I was just removing the gfci breaker and adding a new circuit in the garage, $475. If I need to install that thing $1450... maybe more.

 

[Twochewy]

Not sure why you rent if you can afford 2 Tesla's? Why not delay the Y and buy a house instead. You'll have total control over future charging.

 

[user212_nr]

Not sure why you rent if you can afford 2 Tesla's? Why not delay the Y and buy a house instead. You'll have total control over future charging.

Unfortunately this is a good point, but lots of valid answers why he might rent.

 

[Rocky_H]

You would need to wire that before the hot tub disconnect.

Well yes, of course.

So you would need to remove the disconnect, install that, reinstall the disconnect, and add wiring for the ev charger.

Maybe you are picturing it differently than I am. This depends on which direction things are running to and from with respect to where the main panel is, the garage is, and the hot tub is. I was picturing this as the main panel being at or near the garage, and then it runs through the house somewhere to the back yard/deck where the hot tub is. So if that were the placement, it would just be straightforward to interrupt the line shortly after the panel, in the garage, long before it ever gets out to where the hot tub and its disconnect is.

Also, you are not required to install a gfci on an ev charger as there aren’t any localities on the 2019 nec code book yet. Generally localities run 1-2 cycles behind the current code.

That requirement was put into the 2017 edition of NEC, not 2019. You're right that a lot of places take a couple of years to gradually move to newer versions, but 2017 is getting some uptake in a lot of states, with this being 2020, and it's three years old.

I happen to be an electrician.

Then I'm surprised you didn't know this requirement was put into the 2017 version.

If I was just removing the gfci breaker and adding a new circuit in the garage, $475. If I need to install that thing $1450... maybe more.

That is wonderful that you can give people quotes for your jobs without knowing how long the runs are or where anything is located.

 

[qdeathstar]

Then I'm surprised you didn't know this requirement was put into the 2017 version.

That is wonderful that you can give people quotes for your jobs without knowing how long the runs are or where anything is located.

Most houses are about the same. I just had an inspection pass for a ev 14-50 outlet in a garage without a gfci, but I agree the code says what the code says...

 

[iaflyer]

That requirement was put into the 2017 edition of NEC, not 2019. You're right that a lot of places take a couple of years to gradually move to newer versions, but 2017 is getting some uptake in a lot of states, with this being 2020, and it's three years old.

My local township uses the 2015 NEC for residential projects and the 2017 for Commercial. Never know what required until you search it out.