Modifying your car software is considered fair use. Here is something i posted in other thread:
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green1
Active Member
So precedent says that this is 100% legal....
100% irrelevant as no copies would be made. so still 100% legal.
Except that a) no theft has occurred per the legal definition of theft, and b) the rest of your argument hinges upon making copies of copyrighted works, which is not at all applicable to this case as no copying is involved in any way shape or form.
That's fine, I don't need them to provide any updates. Not a single update has improved the car since I bought it anyway, every single update has removed or broken functionality. (of course, you're also completely wrong about this, because the paperwork for my car specifically states that over the air updates are included... though I'd actually prefer if they don't.)
You obviously haven't read my paperwork. because the paperwork I have specifically states that they ARE required to provide access to their supercharger network, for free, for "life" with no conditions of any form attached.
Well, you're wrong, Their own contract, and consumer protection laws prevent them from doing anything about it.
green1
Active Member
And I've posted that at least twice in this thread too... I'm not sure why I'm bothering honestly. The people who are convinced it's illegal are obviously not interested in looking at any actual "laws" lest they be proven wrong.
I KNOW! It's ridiculous and laughable to read replies in which they pull "facts" out of their a$$3s, imagine stuff, and plain make $h1t up as they go - "yeah, it will void your warranty", "ohh, Tesla will blacklist your VIN from superchargers", "mmm, modifying your car is illegal", "Tesla will sue you", "aahh, Tesla will stop providing you updates", and then the best ones - "mark my word" and "I guarantee it"
Jashev
Member
That is the argument in a nutshell. These guys want to have their cake and eat it too. They want to steal 15kw from Tesla and then they want to Tesla to continue supporting their cars.
Jashev
Member
Not correct. They paid for a 60kw car.
I don't understand why it's even necessary to try and interpret the law on this. Pretty cut and dry that it's stealing (at minimum morally) if you are accessing features others pay for that a hacker can work around.
Yes - Elon is a billionaire but everybody else that works at Tesla depends on revenue to eat.
Yes - Elon is a billionaire but everybody else that works at Tesla depends on revenue to eat.
I'm curious what all of you against gaining administrative access to your cars think of these scenarios:
1. Rooting an iPhone to install applications that Apple doesn't allow you to install.
2. Modifying (overclocking) computer hardware to achieve speeds greater than what it was sold as.
3. Modifying your web browser to block pop up or embedded advertisements.
1. Rooting an iPhone to install applications that Apple doesn't allow you to install.
2. Modifying (overclocking) computer hardware to achieve speeds greater than what it was sold as.
3. Modifying your web browser to block pop up or embedded advertisements.
I'm not against gaining admin access for learning or to tweak things, I'm against people who do it to avoid paying for something that the company is legitimately selling and what others have paid for.
To your examples above, my answers are:
1. No issue at all unless they're doing it to install pirated commercial IPA's to avoid paying for those apps on the App Store.
2. No issue here either. Using intel as an example: unless you're buying the more expensive K chips designed and approved for overclocking, you risk damage and void your warranty.
3. Don't use an ad blocker so will pass on that one.
You might want to add some more relevant ones like:
4. Disabling the copy protection on a DVD to make multiple copies for friends or upload to a torrent site.
5. Modifying a shareware, demo, or incrementally licensed product to get access to additional, paid features.
Those two are probably not illegal in all countries but definitely morally wrong and plainly stealing as the 60->75 hacking example being discussed here is.
That's pretty much exactly the point the good people here are trying to make. The laws are different around the world but it's still just plain stealing at the end of the day.
There are many earlier in the thread that don't even agree with modifications or curiosity. I have a P100D and already paid for FSD and I intend to poke around when I get the time to but even I received flak.
Those are some good additional scenarios that many people do and are ok with. The bottom line is it's grey area morally but likely completely legal. The limited number of people capable of unlocking more battery capacity are not going to make anyone at TM go hungry. What someone does with their property is their business. This thread could use a whole lot less judgment and mud slinging.
Completely agree with you. I would love to poke around too.
Thanks and I agree on the three you posted. For the two I added, they are definitely illegal in the US and in fairness to the people who worked hard to develop the IP, they should be illegal around the world. There's definitely no grey area morally on those.
Imagine you were a single developer or even a small company. You produce a great app. You put it out there at a low cost with basic features to get noticed. You package optional paid features in the app for convenience of delivery and so you only have to maintain one code base. Some guy hacks your app to get the additional paid features. Even worse, he posts how he did it to a forum or modifies your app and torrents it. Now a bunch of people are using that to circumvent paying you. You've put a ton of blood, sweat and tears into it and people are just taking your work without paying.
That's pretty much what we're talking about here, except with a bigger company.
green1
Active Member
You keep using the word "Steal"... it doesn't apply.
As for support, they have both a contractual, and a legal, obligation to support every single part of the car with the exception of the last 15kWh of battery. Every other part is part of the warranty, and other agreements signed at time of purchase.
So yes, I DO want everyone involved, including Tesla, to follow the law. Asking Tesla not to perform an illegal action in response to my legal actions is hardly an unreasonable request.
green1
Active Member
And I paid for a 1060sqft house, not 1069sqft. I still don't think I steal from the builder by opening up unused space they left in a void, any more than I think I steal from Tesla by opening up unused battery space they left in the pack.
green1
Active Member
Actually the reverse is true. The law states it's ok, it's very obviously morally ok as they sold me the whole car, so I can't come up with any possible reason not to.
This is no different than modding an ICE to produce more horsepower when the manufacturer also sells a more expensive car with a bigger engine. It's not my job to ensure they make money.
Tesla's revenue generating choices are not my concern, I'm not responsible for their poor choice of business model (giving away 15 free kWh of battery to every 60 owner in the hopes that a few of them will pay for it later? batteries are expensive, that's a horrible model)
green1
Active Member
If these people are being consistent, then their position is that companies do not have any rules to follow, and can do anything they want, but individuals must at all times do anything any corporation asks regardless of what any laws state.
I thought it was bad when the courts decided that companies were legally "persons", however this would make companies kings, and everyone else peasants.
green1
Active Member
Not at all relevant, as nobody is proposing copying any copyrighted material.
Let's make it instead, "disabling the copy protection on a DVD so that you can play it on your Linux computer that the manufacturer hadn't bothered to make a legal player for" No copying, just watching the DVD you already own.
Actually, there is absolutely nothing morally wrong with doing ANYTHING YOU WANT with your own physical property, I can not steal it from myself, as I already own it.
What's morally re-pungent is all these people on their high horse telling me how I can or can't use my own property, telling me that I owe Tesla a profit stream, or accusing me of committing a crime when they can't find one that fits.
So, if you own a gun, it is OK to shoot someone? I'm sure you didn't mean this. Just pointing out that your statement is overly broad.
green1
Active Member
Not even the least bit remotely comparable, and trying to conflate murder with unlocking software features says a lot about your mind set.
Unless of course you can tell me who's death I will cause by using Tesla's own interface to change the software setting on the car. and if you can, you'd better lock up Tesla's employees, because if that were true they'd have caused hundreds of deaths so far.
It's bad enough people are trying to call it theft when it doesn't match any of the aspects of that crime, now to conflate it with murder? how desperate are you guys to try to make us out as villans?
If you can prove this is illegal, post a law that would make it so.
As a refresher from so many other people's posts. The DMCA isn't it (specific exemption for modifying vehicles), Copyright law isn't it (no copying being proposed), laws against theft aren't it (require depriving someone of their property), hacking laws aren't it (require that the owner of the system does not give permission, and I own the system, and I give permission) and, just in case you really were going there, no, murder isn't it either (requires killing someone!)
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