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Is it time for a MS Battery Degradation spread sheet?

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How do we know ideal is any better? Both are just fabricated numbers.

'Ideal' is better simply because it is "ideal". As far as I can tell it does not try to estimate your range based on temp, driving patterns, etc.
Rated range can and has changed between software versions, Ideal has not. Sure, it is possible, but does so less often. Less variability in the measuring stick makes for more accurate measurements and trends.

It is by no means perfect. The actual battery capacity is best, the ideal range is a distant second, and I would say rated range is virtually worthless for large scale trends.

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To all offering to help, thank you!

I would also be happy to help. However, I have no skill in programming, and some minor skill in building graphs and charts with Excel.

If I can be of any help, please let me know.
 
In order to do this, we would have to be able to pull logs from the model S, like the roadster. Going by the rated or ideal miles after a charge is pretty useless at this point in time, because there are just too many variables that the firmware takes into account in order to arrive at those displayed numbers. The Rest API is a little better, but provides very little information compared to the log dump on a roadster.
Trying to use estimated miles to measure pack capacity would be useless since estimated miles depend on recent driving which can't easily be controlled across time or owners.

Rated miles and ideal miles are both energy units, and thus a good measure of battery pack capacity after a charge. To get the best reading for a Roadster, you have to wait at least 10 minutes after the charge completes for the Roadster to make additional measurements and refine the SOC estimate. I suspect it's similar on the Model S.

On the Roadster, we can get the "calculated amp-hour capacity" of the battery pack, which Tesla says is the best measure of the pack's capacity. This number is much easier to collect than reading the ideal range after a charge given the care that must be used to get an accurate reading, especially for a range mode charge where you have to wait at least 10 minutes for the SOC to settle, but don't want to wait any longer as the car slowly uses energy from the pack to continue thermal management long after the charge completes. That said, I've found that standard mode ideal range correlates very well with CAC. Range mode also correlates, although with a lower correlation coefficient, which I attribute to the logistical challenges in getting a perfect range mode reading.

Of course all of these numbers are ultimately computed by the car and susceptible to change and even deliberate manipulation by the automaker. The only truly reliable way to measure pack capacity is to run the car from full to empty in perfect, standardized conditions, which means careful charging procedures followed by running the car on a dynomometer under perfectly controlled conditions. That's an expensive undertaking and lot to ask for a widespread, grassroots survey. We can do almost as well with simpler data, combined with owners logging trips to compare rated mile performance under similar driving conditions across time.

In a very real sense, perception is what matters. Helping Model S owners relate what they see to what other owners are experiencing would be helpful to the community even if the numbers aren't as scientific as we'd like. This played out in a big way for the LEAF community where the car's instrumentation is incredibly weak.

I think it would make sense to start a study based on rated miles observed after standard and range mode charges. The way I have the survey data collection set up for the Roadster and LEAF surveys makes it's easy to see both a snapshot of the most recent reports from all vehicles and the history of reports for a given vehicle.

If a better way of measuring battery pack capacity is made available later, that can be added to the survey and correlated with the history of reported rated range values.

I'd be happy to provide a web API way to submit reports to enable apps that could allow owners to use the Model S REST API to securely grab data for their vehicle, then submit the relevant info to the survey. That way owners don't have to share their passwords with anyone but can still submit data in an automated way.
 
I agree with Tom. Much of these approaches are getting far too complex.

We only need to provide a few things to get useful information:

1. What's your rated range immediately after a standard charge completes?
2. (Optional) What's your rated range immediately after a range charge completes?
3. How many miles on your car?
4. How many months since delivery?

This information is simple, standardized, and while not perfect, still provides us with information on how the charge capacity is trending, and allows us to look at it with respect to miles on the drivetrain and age of the pack.

I'll start.

1. 241 miles.
2. Haven't needed to range charge yet, and won't do it just to provide a data point.
3. 6,300 miles.
4. 4.5 months.
 
I agree with Tom. Much of these approaches are getting far too complex.

We only need to provide a few things to get useful information:

1. What's your rated range immediately after a standard charge completes?
2. (Optional) What's your rated range immediately after a range charge completes?
3. How many miles on your car?
4. How many months since delivery?

This information is simple, standardized, and while not perfect, still provides us with information on how the charge capacity is trending, and allows us to look at it with respect to miles on the drivetrain and age of the pack.

I'll start.

1. 241 miles.
2. Haven't needed to range charge yet, and won't do it just to provide a data point.
3. 6,300 miles.
4. 4.5 months.

Here's my info:
1. 240 miles for the last two standard charges
2. 264 miles for the last range charge (although that was prior to my recent 1,200 mile road trip)
3. 5,747 miles
4. 2 months and 1 week since delivery

Other info- I've visited the superchargers 10 times (Gilroy 4X, Harris Ranch 2X, Tejon Ranch 2X, Barstow 2X) and range charged about six times (although I ranged charged immediately before leaving on a trip and didn't let the battery sit around at a high state of charge). My daily commute uses about 55 miles of rated range and I do a timed standard charge every night.

The first several range charges yielded 270 miles so I've probably had a bit of degradation, but I bought the car to drive it and I won't start getting worried until the degradation starts making it more difficult to go on road trips.
 
Trying to use estimated miles to measure pack capacity would be useless since estimated miles depend on recent driving which can't easily be controlled across time or owners.

Rated miles and ideal miles are both energy units, and thus a good measure of battery pack capacity after a charge. To get the best reading for a Roadster, you have to wait at least 10 minutes after the charge completes for the Roadster to make additional measurements and refine the SOC estimate. I suspect it's similar on the Model S.

The rated/ideal miles vary too much to be of much use, as the Model S is too new to have much more battery degredation than the small differences reported. Then there are the differences in firmware that change the reported numbers. A good example of this would be my car. First full standard charge was 237. Then it varied berween 239-241. Then after a while it went back to 238. A few charges back I saw 245. Now its 240. This is on the same firmware 4.2 that the car came with. This data tells me that there are too many variables, and trying to come to a conclusion about battery degredation from this would be silly at best.

I have noticed that some here go the opposite direction I did(start out high and go lower), which in turn makes them freak out and cry wolf. A few miles down after a few months isn't going to be a conclusive way to determine battery capacity.


On the Roadster, we can get the "calculated amp-hour capacity" of the battery pack, which Tesla says is the best measure of the pack's capacity. This number is much easier to collect than reading the ideal range after a charge given the care that must be used to get an accurate reading, especially for a range mode charge where you have to wait at least 10 minutes for the SOC to settle, but don't want to wait any longer as the car slowly uses energy from the pack to continue thermal management long after the charge completes. That said, I've found that standard mode ideal range correlates very well with CAC. Range mode also correlates, although with a lower correlation coefficient, which I attribute to the logistical challenges in getting a perfect range mode reading.

Of course all of these numbers are ultimately computed by the car and susceptible to change and even deliberate manipulation by the automaker. The only truly reliable way to measure pack capacity is to run the car from full to empty in perfect, standardized conditions, which means careful charging procedures followed by running the car on a dynomometer under perfectly controlled conditions. That's an expensive undertaking and lot to ask for a widespread, grassroots survey. We can do almost as well with simpler data, combined with owners logging trips to compare rated mile performance under similar driving conditions across time.

In a very real sense, perception is what matters. Helping Model S owners relate what they see to what other owners are experiencing would be helpful to the community even if the numbers aren't as scientific as we'd like. This played out in a big way for the LEAF community where the car's instrumentation is incredibly weak.

I think it would make sense to start a study based on rated miles observed after standard and range mode charges. The way I have the survey data collection set up for the Roadster and LEAF surveys makes it's easy to see both a snapshot of the most recent reports from all vehicles and the history of reports for a given vehicle.

If a better way of measuring battery pack capacity is made available later, that can be added to the survey and correlated with the history of reported rated range values.

I'd be happy to provide a web API way to submit reports to enable apps that could allow owners to use the Model S REST API to securely grab data for their vehicle, then submit the relevant info to the survey. That way owners don't have to share their passwords with anyone but can still submit data in an automated way.

This might be the best way to go about it

^^^^^
 
1. 235
2. 258
3. 13,000
4. 4

I'll add:
Approx. lifetime Wh/mi: 320, as a useful measure of how I treat the car.

I'll also add (for entertainment purposes only), the answers to the questions as of 11,500 miles:
1. 243
2. 272
3. 11,500
4. 3.5

(and approx. same lifetime Wh/mi). These numbers were *solid*, every time I was around when charging was done (or watching the app). The new numbers are also solid.
 
1. 235
2. 258
3. 13,000
4. 4

I'll add:
Approx. lifetime Wh/mi: 320, as a useful measure of how I treat the car.

I'll also add (for entertainment purposes only), the answers to the questions as of 11,500 miles:
1. 243
2. 272
3. 11,500
4. 3.5

(and approx. same lifetime Wh/mi)
Was there a firmware update between these two data points?
 
Here's my info:
1. 240 miles for the last two standard charges
2. 264 miles for the last range charge (although that was prior to my recent 1,200 mile road trip)
3. 5,747 miles
4. 2 months and 1 week since delivery

While it's still anecdotal, it looks like I'm getting more standard charge range after a deeper discharge than I normally use on my daily commute. The first standard charge after a 1,200 mile roadtrip that ended with 60 miles of rated range yielded 244 miles of range. A few days later, I got 240 miles for two standard charges in a row after my daily commute (which usually ends with 175 to 180 miles of range). I drove a bit more yesterday and started a standard charge with 140 of rated range and this time it charged to 241 miles. The 240 vs. 241 could just be noise, but the 244 was definitely higher than I'm used to seeing.

Assuming this observation of more standard charge range after a deeper discharge holds up, is it more likely to be due to some artifact in the algorithm that calculates rated range, some difference in charging conditions (e.g. ambient temperature), or is an occasional moderately deep discharge actually good for the battery pack?
 
It's actually pretty hard to know how much energy a battery is holding; it's not like you can go in there and count electrons on each side of the chemical reaction. The charge estimate is based on the car watching how the battery pack is performing and is not exact by any means.

It does seems like the Roadster gets a more optimistic view of what the battery pack can hold when I do a charge after a fairly deep discharge, down to 25% or so, under calm conditions. It's generally a small effect, maybe 1%, and has to be viewed in the context of seasonal variation. Maybe it's because it sees the battery perform over a wider range of use, or maybe because the pack gets balanced better after a deep discharge, or both.

Charge rate also plays a role. Roadsters fairly consistently show more charge after a low-rate charge. We normally charge our Roadster at 240V/32A and it's been getting 179-180 ideal miles in Standard mode. Recently I did a 240V/12A charge from 40% (part of my work on the charge time predictor for OVMS and Tattler) and it charged to 183 miles. Interestingly, the "calculated amp-hour capacity" rating did not change, even though it frequently wiggles by a fraction of an amp-hour after a drive or charge session. My theory has been that the lower charge rate allows for better pack balancing, but I'm puzzled that the CAC didn't change given how much the standard mode charge level changed.

It's been almost four years, and I'm still learning about the Roadster.
 
I have a feeling that the M.S. battery system is so high-tech, that there is little to no actual battery degradation at all. These "differences" we're seeing may just be due to software calculations. They have a car in their labs with over 500,000 miles on it, combined with the fact that Elon keeps telling us not to worry about the battery and guaranteeing resale value higher than any other car - I really think they just might have perfected this thing. I think all those "warnings" may just to be to "cover their butts" in legal speak, but in their actual testing and based on data from real world driving, it is possible that degradation doesn't really come into play much no matter what your driving and charging habits are.
 
Lion degrades..... Find the post by the satellite guy as he gives very exact details about how they design Lion systems for ten to fifteen year life cycles.

That being said, little bits and pieces about the battery design seem to indicate that there is more than rated capacity so one or more single point(s) of failure do not have an impact on user capacity (think hard disks mapping around bad sectors without a loss in user perceived capacity). This is just a guess on my part as I've not read a detailed description of how Tesla handles single point failures within a 7800 unit system.
 
Tesla powered Rav4 EV data:

In service November 2012. High utilization of over 2000 miles (3000km) per month. Never stored in a hot environment. The only time subject to over 100F / 38C degrees, the car was left on all day to run the battery temperature control (Rav4 EV only conditions the battery when on, while charging, or in the 15-20 minutes prior to scheduled departure of a timed preheat / precooling of the cabin).

Car is frequently cycled to low SOC%, as might be expected from high utilization. Never left parked for more than a few hours at high SOC%.

Full charge to turtle:

144.4 miles at 3.7 miles per kWh (270 watthours per mile) equals 39.0kWh

39.0 / 41.8kWh = 93.3% capacity

6.7% degradation at 20,000 miles, 9 months in service.

***************

Yesterday, drove with full charge to about 6 miles remaining:

18 months in service, 36,000 miles

94 miles driven miles plus 6 miles remaining at 2.7 miles per kWh (370 watthours per mile) equals 37.0kWh

37.0 / 41.8kWh = 88.5% capacity

11.5% degradation at 36,000 miles, 18 months in service.

****************

NOTE: these are single data point observations, and not exhaustive research.
 
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