Is the dual motor option worth it?

[ℬête Noire]

I doubt that. I live in a temperate rain forest. You don't get more, or heavier, rains than here unless you're talking about hurricanes and if so no one is driving unless to leave.

I'm from Western Canada, I'm quite aware of the Rockies' and BC climate (well, I've not been up the coast toward Prince Rupert and all, I've been past to Anchorage but that's different). The Gulf moisture, due to the heat, creates saturation that takes rain bursts here to theoretical limits. Don't get more total rain, and of course the lower mainland sees hard rains because of being coastal and the currents, but it's just another notch up in intensity here. Wipers not keeping up is the default, I've never gotten as wet as fast until I came here. *shrug*

As for that article and your comments, it's not outright wrong but I'll say (with a number of years of AWD/4WD) that I've found differing take. It's not really "handling", so I don't disagree with them on that per se, it's maybe better put as correction by acceleration. The only trouble I've gotten in is the other way around, having switched off front wheels to save rubber I had forgotten to turn them back on at an appropriate juncture. D'oh.

 

[Canuck]

Wipers not keeping up is the default, I've never gotten as wet as fast until I came here. *shrug*

Driving through our torrential rains gets a shrug from you compared to Texas? Okay. My wife finds it downright panicking -- she called me one time from the side of the road and I could barely hear her from the rain and she said everyone had pulled over. But I guess it gets worse.

I'm just telling you from my experience. Which I'm sure wouldn't be any different if I lived in Texas since I've never been stuck in water and that's why I want AWD. Otherwise, RWD is more fun -- to me. I can't imagine any Texas torrential downpour could change my opinion so it's hard for me to just take your word for it.

But as I've said all along all AWD is more safe and keeps you more planted. So I also don't necessarily agree with that article. In fact, I've said here before AWD beats out good winter tires, so I disagree with that part of the article -- for certain. I just linked it to show a different point of view since I think a lot of different variables go into feeling comfortable driving through the rain only one of which is whether the front tires are actually turning themselves or being pushed.

 

[Canuck]

Not sure if it was just that particular S85 or all RWD have weaker regen brake than AWD.

I've driven a number of AWD loaners and there's no difference in regen that I can tell between my RWD S. It also doesn't make sense from my limited knowledge of how regen works through the regenerative brakes and the battery -- which should make no difference if you add another motor. But someone can correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[TEG]

If there is enough traction on the rear tires, I would assume that RWD only regen could max out how much they can put back into the battery...
*but* if there are slick conditions where too much regen would cause slipping/lock-up, then I could see AWD regen providing more overall regen traction.
So, most of the time, it may not matter, but in those unusual slippery conditions I could see AWD providing more regen capability.

 

[Knightshade]

In fact, I've said here before AWD beats out good winter tires, so I disagree with that part of the article -- for certain..

Winter-Traction Test: What Price Traction?

Car and driver tested the same car in AWD and RWD (and then another pair in AWD and FWD) with both all seasons and winter tires- all in the same sets of snowy and icy conditions.

They tested:

Hill climbing, on grades of 10, 15, and 30 percent

Straight line performance, 0-50 acceleration then 50-0 panic stops on snow (30 on ice)

Handling, on a snowpacked skidpad and a slalom snow field.

Their conclusion?

Four-wheel drive helps get cars going. When it comes time to brake or change direction on low-traction surfaces, the extra mass of the driveline becomes more of a detriment.

Folks who live in hilly places that get snow may need the climbing capability of four-wheel drive. If it snows a lot in those hilly places, they should probably invest in winter tires, too. Even flat-landers who happen to have steep driveways may wish to consider a four-wheel-driver.

Almost everyone else will most likely be better served by using winter tires. Acceleration takes longer, but in an emergency, the handling behavior and improved lateral grip of two-wheel drive and winter tires -- in the slippery stuff -- are the safer bets.

Basically outside of very steep hills (RWD/FWD handled 10 and 15 percent grades fine, only on the 30 percent grade test was AWD needed) and snow-drag-racing, Tires > AWD.

Having both is ideal of course.

 

[Need]

If there is enough traction on the rear tires, I would assume that RWD only regen could max out how much they can put back into the battery...
*but* if there are slick conditions where too much regen would cause slipping/lock-up, then I could see AWD regen providing more overall regen traction.
So, most of the time, it may not matter, but in those unusual slippery conditions I could see AWD providing more regen capability.

When I said stronger regen brake, I just mean that I feel like the braking part is stronger. I don't know anything about how much it regens. When I drive the 75D, I don't have to brake (press on the brake pedal) when I turn on local street driving at 35 mph. When I had the RWD loaner, I had to tap the brake before the turn or it will take the turn too fast.

 

[Swampgator]

Winter-Traction Test: What Price Traction?

Car and driver tested the same car in AWD and RWD (and then another pair in AWD and FWD) with both all seasons and winter tires- all in the same sets of snowy and icy conditions.

They tested:

Hill climbing, on grades of 10, 15, and 30 percent

Straight line performance, 0-50 acceleration then 50-0 panic stops on snow (30 on ice)

Handling, on a snowpacked skidpad and a slalom snow field.

Their conclusion?




Basically outside of very steep hills (RWD/FWD handled 10 and 15 percent grades fine, only on the 30 percent grade test was AWD needed) and snow-drag-racing, Tires > AWD.

Having both is ideal of course.

They did not test a Tesla in that article. Any ICE awd has so many disadvantages vs a Tesla D it's not even worth the comparison.
1.Digital modulation vs analog.
2.No increase in power from ICE rwd to awd, in fact increased drive train losses and increased mass
3. Ability to have different final drive ratios front to rear in the Tesla.

The AWD Tesla will be SIGNIFICANTLY better than the RWD by almost every measure, except possibly pure driving fun. RWD cars car hang the butt out a little during hard corning and tighten back up under acceleration. This was immensely fun in my Honda S2000. For most drivers however, AWD Tesla is far superior to RWD

 

[Knightshade]

They did not test a Tesla in that article. Any ICE awd has so many disadvantages vs a Tesla D it's not even worth the comparison.
1.Digital modulation vs analog.

I'm not even sure what you mean here... ICE cars have had electronic traction control for decades.

Teslas have an open diff and then electronic traction control. They "emulate" a limited slip by modulating the brakes.

ICE cars generally have either an open diff and electronic traction control (which works by modulating the brakes), or even better, a limited slip one plus electronic traction control.

Not that Teslas TC isn't very good for an open-diff car- it certainly is. But not in any way that'd change the results of the testing.

2.No increase in power from ICE rwd to awd, in fact increased drive train losses and increased mass

Err... the AWD Teslas also have increased mass.

They do have more power, but in snow/ice all the cars discussed, regardless of drive train, aren't being driven full throttle anyway- so not sure why you think more total power helps? Horsepower doesn't give your slipping tire traction.

3. Ability to have different final drive ratios front to rear in the Tesla.

Which ICE cars also have (they don't always come that way, but some certainly do)...so not sure your point here?

For example-
http://nissannews.com/media_storage/downloads/2016_Nissan_GT-R_NISMO_Specs_3-15.pdf

Specs on a '16 GT-R... different final drive ratios front to rear. And hardly the only example.

The AWD Tesla will be SIGNIFICANTLY better than the RWD by almost every measure

Not in snow/ice if the AWD has all-seasons and the RWD has snow tires.

Results will be remarkably similar to the professional testing I linked to.

Same tires on both? Sure. But that wasn't the discussion.

Tires > drive train in snow/ice for most situations. (very steep hills being the main exception)

 

[brucet999]

I am interested in getting feedback about the dual motor option. Is there a big difference in handling in cold weather (snow conditions) between the RWD and the AWD? My current ride while I wait in line is a RWD car that has proven to be manageable during the winter season. The other question is whether there is any difference in actual range. I know that Tesla advertises an increased range with the dual motor, but after reading the attached links, I'm not so sure. Anyone (Model S owners) able to add comments. Thanks.

https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiamZXri_fZAhVEyYMKHZRyBssQFggnMAA&url=https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1102834_all-wheel-drive-tesla-electric-cars-rated-more-efficient-but-how&usg=AOvVaw2t4RgDZ7ZQRRRmK47pp2xL

https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiStdnFjPfZAhWa8oMKHUdoAQUQFggnMAA&url=https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1115257_life-with-tesla-model-s-coast-to-coast-in-a-new-100d-and-how-it-differed-from-my-old-85&usg=AOvVaw3FpOKQKZko2s29nNkpFeQf

Dual motor version can undoubtedly perform better in snowy or slippery conditions than RWD. How much better is hard to tell without side-by-side testing.

The range of M2 and Mx dual motor cars is slightly better at sustained highway speeds due to capability of "Torque Sleep" whereby software automatically shuts down the rear motor and runs only the front one that has a slightly higher gear ratio.

Tesla says that M3 dual motor range will be less than the RWD version, even though it has the same induction type front motor as the S and X cars. I spoke today with a Tesla Mobile technician who happened to be at the Kettleman City SpC, and I asked him about that. He told me that M3 can't do Torque Sleep because its rear motor is permanent magnet type, so it cannot free-wheel like the induction motors of S and X with their electromagnets shut off. The motor is always either operating as a motor or generator.

In fact, he told me that M3 cannot be towed for that reason. There is a towing mode, he said, but only so a disabled M3 can be pulled onto a flat bed or out of the way of traffic, but that mode shuts off after 20 minutes and the parking brake locks.

 

[eric1856]

Dual motor version can undoubtedly perform better in snowy or slippery conditions than RWD. How much better is hard to tell without side-by-side testing.

The range of M2 and Mx dual motor cars is slightly better at sustained highway speeds due to capability of "Torque Sleep" whereby software automatically shuts down the rear motor and runs only the front one that has a slightly higher gear ratio.

Tesla says that M3 dual motor range will be less than the RWD version, even though it has the same induction type front motor as the S and X cars. I spoke today with a Tesla Mobile technician who happened to be at the Kettleman City SpC, and I asked him about that. He told me that M3 can't do Torque Sleep because its rear motor is permanent magnet type, so it cannot free-wheel like the induction motors of S and X with their electromagnets shut off. The motor is always either operating as a motor or generator.

In fact, he told me that M3 cannot be towed for that reason. There is a towing mode, he said, but only so a disabled M3 can be pulled onto a flat bed or out of the way of traffic, but that mode shuts off after 20 minutes and the parking brake locks.

Can the front motor then free-wheel?

 

[Dinozero]

Can the front motor then free-wheel?

I believe it can, yes.. but then the Rear motor is still stuck at the same drive ratio it's always been stuck at. So no savings and in fact it just weighs more.

I like many others were expecting the AWD to have more range like the S and X do. It's not that Tesla did anything wrong to the Model 3 it's just that the type of motor they used (which is more efficient overall) makes things a little different.

I think this is why they lowered the rating on the RWD model. They wanted to show them all at 310 miles vs showing the RWD at 334 and the others at 310.

They didn't want any reason that someone would spend less money on the RWD vs the more expensive ones they are trying to sell more of.

Plus when a competitor comes out.. They could make it look like the RWD has got more range by changing it to 334.

 

[Birch]

I am interested in getting feedback about the dual motor option. Is there a big difference in handling in cold weather (snow conditions) between the RWD and the AWD? My current ride while I wait in line is a RWD car that has proven to be manageable during the winter season. The other question is whether there is any difference in actual range. I know that Tesla advertises an increased range with the dual motor, but after reading the attached links, I'm not so sure. Anyone (Model S owners) able to add comments. Thanks.

https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiamZXri_fZAhVEyYMKHZRyBssQFggnMAA&url=https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1102834_all-wheel-drive-tesla-electric-cars-rated-more-efficient-but-how&usg=AOvVaw2t4RgDZ7ZQRRRmK47pp2xL

https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiStdnFjPfZAhWa8oMKHUdoAQUQFggnMAA&url=https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1115257_life-with-tesla-model-s-coast-to-coast-in-a-new-100d-and-how-it-differed-from-my-old-85&usg=AOvVaw3FpOKQKZko2s29nNkpFeQf

We have had the long range RWD for several months and absolutely love it. Just got our performance AWD and was my wife's reaction AFTER having owned the RWD for several months. haha

 

[TEG]

^^^ Yep, looks like fun...

 

[Pete1]

We have had the long range RWD for several months and absolutely love it. Just got our performance AWD and was my wife's reaction AFTER having owned the RWD for several months. haha

Four co-ordinated live wheels must be superior to two live and two lazy in a high proportion of driving situations.

 

[daniel]

Four co-ordinated live wheels must be superior to two live and two lazy in a high proportion of driving situations.

Definitely superior in some kinds of driving situations. But for the vast majority of ordinary driving on dry pavement, RWD is all you need. Yes, AWD is more sporty, and much better in snow, and much better if you want the quickest acceleration. But for an ordinary driver in ordinary driving on dry pavement, no, it's not really better, and for many of us, that's most, if not all of the time.

 

[SammichLover]

Definitely superior in some kinds of driving situations. But for the vast majority of ordinary driving on dry pavement, RWD is all you need. Yes, AWD is more sporty, and much better in snow, and much better if you want the quickest acceleration. But for an ordinary driver in ordinary driving on dry pavement, no, it's not really better, and for many of us, that's most, if not all of the time.

I didn't buy this car for "ordinary". And I generally don't stay at home on a given day because it is wet or otherwise a bit slippery, or my route happens to take me here there's some loose gravel or pebbles on the road, or poor/no pavement. How often that is depends on where you live, Pheonix is different from Portland is different from Chicago is different than somewhere more rural. It's pretty extreme to claim "if not all of the time", that's like maybe sections of California and East of the mountains SW. If you don't travel anywhere, limit your routes, and stay at home on the days with inclement weather.

Of course there is the option to adjust your driving around not having AWD which handles most of it outside of pretty extreme situations, which is very much a workable choice. But it doesn't change that AWD does bring benefits of some level to effectively everyone, if they choose to use them.

 

[daniel]

I did quite well with two-wheel drive in North Dakota from 1988, when I got rid of the P.O.S. Jeep until 2005 when I moved to Spokane, where I did quite well with the Prius, and then the Zap Xebra, and then the RWD Roadster which I drove summer and winter until I move to paradise last fall.

AWD is great to have if you can afford it and have slippery roads. Heck, I'd have gotten P-AWD if it had been available on the first production cars. But very few people really need it. Here in Maui it would serve no purpose at all.

 

[MoHazee4]

If you live anywhere with snow....then Yes. Go with dual motor.

If you want the power boost...and cool badge....go Dual motor....

 

[scubastevo80]

Dual motor owner here - love the low 4 second zero to sixty times and P like torque from 20-70mph. Never had a problem is snow or rain and I get the 310 miles vs the 320-325 of the rwd version.

 

[jyalpert]

To us, the dual motor calculus did not make sense.

We did not think the price increase (like $10k) was worth it. Plenty of acceleration in RWD for me. Inclement weather benefit is mostly marginal except in few edge cases, almost all of which can be mitigated with proper tires and driving technique, and for a lot less money.

There is also the question of residual value for resale, but I haven't seen any evidence that the residual % on a RWD would be lower than a dual motor.

So the question is a bit of a personal one - what would be the realistic incremental benefit to you, how much are you willing to pay for that benefit, and what alternatives are available for what price?