Yes. Because Hamas would kill me.
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Israel/Hamas conflict
- Thread starter Buckminster
- Start date
Jigglypuff
Member
(moderator edit) …philosophizing will lead to the death of people like us.
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navguy12
Active Member
An editorial from a regular contributor to The Toronto Star (09 Dec 2023):
This is a disturbing read on the apparently targeted and deliberate sexual violence against women during Hamas' Oct 7th attack.
How Hamas Used Sexual Violence on October 7th
How Hamas Used Sexual Violence on October 7th
Jigglypuff
Member
The is no Hamas in the West Bank.
I said that in the context of "reparation".
You and I both know borders change enormously in these decades. Much more land and many more homes have been occupied since that time.
If you proposed Israel to be based only on that "legally purchased" land probably all UN (and me, for that matter) would support you. Israelis would never support that, tho. Israel is much bigger now.
(also, there are hundred thousands of Jews around the world who oppose occupation: are they the famous "self-hating Jews"? Stop conflating antisemitism with legitimate critics of Israel).
jabloomf1230
Minister of Silly Walks
History of Palestine 1914-1920 - An Introduction to the History of Palestine and the Palestine police between 1914 and 1948.
Introduction to the history of the Palestine Police during the British Mandate
britishpalestinepolice.org.uk
Here's an extremely detailed history from the perspective of policing, of the Palestine Mandate from 1914 up until partition in 1948.
(moderator edit)
That highlights the problem with this whole issue. Both sides have a valid claim and both sides have also done wrong.
If the Romans hadn't forcefully relocated many of the Jews in Palestine to the fringes of the empire in Europe, a lot of history would be different. But they did.
The Jewish people do claim that area as their ancestral homeland, and as you point out the archeology as well as the ancient texts support that claim, but they didn't live there for almost 2000 years.
The Jewish people went and created a homeland in the middle of the area Europeans invaded and tried to make their own 1000 years ago during the Crusades. In Europe there have been a lot of problems because many westerners see Jews as "the other". They are considered separate from western civilization, but what they established in Israel was a western culture. Israel is a Jewish state, but it's also a European culture.
To the Arabs, they see the establishment of Israel as the Crusades 2.0. They have been teaching that for many years.
The Muslim world was rocked by the Crusades. They managed to force the European out, but at great cost and the sophisticated Muslim civilization that had grown up after the expansion of Islam fell apart.
Islam is a colonial religion. Or it was in its early days. They colonized across North Africa, up into Asia Minor, and even into Spain and the Balkans.
In history nothing is 100%, but generally as long as people didn't actively oppose their new rulers Islamic rule was very tolerant of other "people of the Book". ie Jews and Christians could live in peace under Islamic rule. These non-Muslims had to pay an extra tax and could not hold any government posts, but were otherwise tolerated. Over time people would convert to Islam to avoid the tax or to take posts in the government. Conversions was much more a carrot than a stick kind of thing.
The Crusades changed the perspective of Muslims towards Christians. It was the Christians who were initially the intolerant ones, but Muslims learned to be intolerant in response. Jews were still allowed to live peacefully in Muslim territory. Into the 20th century there were Jewish communities in Syria, Iran, and a number of other Muslim countries. They lived much more peacefully than the European Jews ever did.
The attitude towards the Jewish people changed shortly after the founding of Israel and the people of those Jewish communities mostly moved to Israel out of self preservation.
You are correct that before the founding of Israel the Palestinian people had no identity. They were simply the people who happened to be living in that area. When the British took over the region after WW I they named the new province Palestine, so the people living there became Palestinians.
The pro-Israel lobby in the US has done a very good job of conflating criticism of the government of Israel with antisemitism. It has worked to cow people from criticizing Israel and has allowed them to do some things that other countries can't get away with. For example Israeli settlers have been creeping the border between Israel and Palestinian territory. Nobody would tolerate a bunch of Americans going down to Baja California and declaring it part of the United States and then the US administering it as their territory.
People now have Israel and Judaism interlinked in their minds and any criticism of Israel is hating on Jews. And there are people critical of Israel who have expanded their issue to all Jews, but there are also a lot of people who are just critical of Israel and have no issue with the religion or ethnicity of Judaism. Israel the country has done some things wrong. Just as the United States, the UK, and many other countries have done wrong. If I'm critical of the government in the UK that doesn't say anything about my views on the Church of England. I'm critical of Italy, that doesn't reflect anything on Catholics.
Somebody can be just fine with the religion and ethnicity of Judaism, but have issues with the government of Israel. The two really are separate.
But people conflate things all the time. During COVID when the US president was denigrating China for being the source of the virus, Chinese Americans were attacked at a much higher rate than before the pandemic. Even if the Chinese government had some culpability in the virus getting loose in the world, the people who were ethnically Chinese living in the United States had nothing to do with it, but in some people's minds they were at fault.
The same sort of thing is going on in the minds of some people in the west who are mixing their criticisms for what the government of Israel may be doing and it being the fault of all Jews in the world. It's just as false as blaming the Chinese busboy at the local Chinese restaurant as being responsible for COVID.
There are valid arguments for and against each side. Hamas started this conflict and they did kill around 1000 people in the initial day or two. Some Israelis are doing border creep on the Palestinians and the current government is more or less encouraging it. However, Israel's basic stance is just protecting the borders they have right now. They have done some offensive actions in the past such as the venture into southern Lebanon in the 80s, but mostly their stance is defensive.
Hamas has set up their positions so they are surrounded by innocent civilians and there is no way to get to them without killing a lot of civilians. Like everything about this conflict, I don't have a good answer for that one.
At this point the death toll in Gaza is about 17:1 against Gazans. There are reasons for this (see above), but it's still a fact of this war. Ignoring that more people of Gaza are dying than Israelis did at the start of this war is coming across to those who are somewhat sympathetic to the Palestinian cause as an attitude that Palestinian lives don't matter.
It is a fact that a lot of innocent people are getting killed and a lot more are losing their homes. It's also a fact that Hamas made sure this would happen. Israel failing to show any regret for having to cause so much suffering to get at Hamas is playing into Hamas' hands. It makes them look like monsters who like killing Palestinians and that is the perfect recruiting ad for the next generation of Hamas fighters.
The only way that Hamas ceases to exist on the back of this conflict is if there is a concerted effort to rebuild Gaza better than before and turn it into a decent place to live. That's going to take a lot of money and unfortunately the US and Israel will spare no expense to win a war, they won't spend enough to tine the peace afterwards.
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Hamas doesn't need to cease to exist so much as cease to exist as a threat to Israel. The IDF is making much faster progress in Gaza than all of the outside windbags predicted. I think they will achieve their goal of degrading Hamas to the point where it doesn't pose an imminent threat.
This video is from about a year ago.
All these Palestinians have been conditioned to never accept any compromise or two state solution.
All these Palestinians have been conditioned to never accept any compromise or two state solution.
Bet TSLA
Active Member
And a follow-up.
Statement of Scholars in Holocaust and Genocide Studies on Mass Violence in Israel and Palestine since 7 October | Contending Modernities
In the following statement, over 55 scholars of the Holocaust, genocide, and mass violence deplore the atrocity crimes against civilians...
contendingmodernities.nd.edu
Statement of Scholars in Holocaust and Genocide Studies on Mass Violence in Israel and Palestine since 7 October
...We, scholars of the Holocaust, genocide, and mass violence, feel compelled to warn of the danger of genocide in Israel’s attack on Gaza. We also note that, should the Israeli attack continue and escalate, Palestinians under Israeli military occupation in the West Bank and East Jerusalem and Palestinian citizens of Israel face grave danger as well.
...
Why? Is the IDF going to attack the West Bank and East Jerusalem? What do they base this on? Are the Palestinians in Israel a threat to Israel? It's been 2 months and nothing like that has happened.And a follow-up.
Statement of Scholars in Holocaust and Genocide Studies on Mass Violence in Israel and Palestine since 7 October | Contending Modernities
In the following statement, over 55 scholars of the Holocaust, genocide, and mass violence deplore the atrocity crimes against civilians...Statement of Scholars in Holocaust and Genocide Studies on Mass Violence in Israel and Palestine since 7 October
...
We, scholars of the Holocaust, genocide, and mass violence, feel compelled to warn of the danger of genocide in Israel’s attack on Gaza. We also note that, should the Israeli attack continue and escalate, Palestinians under Israeli military occupation in the West Bank and East Jerusalem and Palestinian citizens of Israel face grave danger as well.
...
Jigglypuff
Member
Lols... hosted at a Catholic institution. I know that Catholic institutions are great protectors of children.And a follow-up.
Statement of Scholars in Holocaust and Genocide Studies on Mass Violence in Israel and Palestine since 7 October | Contending Modernities
In the following statement, over 55 scholars of the Holocaust, genocide, and mass violence deplore the atrocity crimes against civilians...Statement of Scholars in Holocaust and Genocide Studies on Mass Violence in Israel and Palestine since 7 October
...
We, scholars of the Holocaust, genocide, and mass violence, feel compelled to warn of the danger of genocide in Israel’s attack on Gaza. We also note that, should the Israeli attack continue and escalate, Palestinians under Israeli military occupation in the West Bank and East Jerusalem and Palestinian citizens of Israel face grave danger as well.
...
A bunch of random academics quoting a New York Times article and having the intellectual fortitude of Lennie.
Repeating the same immoral, baseless, pro-terrorist garbage doesn't make a word of this worth reading.
Jigglypuff
Member
FYI, those are open air prisons. No! Concentration camps. No! Genocide factories. No! Refugee camps. Yes, that's the right word. Refugee camps. With fancy shopping and stuff.
But clearly, clearly this is all just hasbara, which means it's all fake lies put out by octopus people.
Reducing them to just not being an imminent threat allows them to come back. The way you end an insurgency is to change the underlying conditions that are fueling it. If Palestinians saw their fortunes improving after Hamas was trimmed back, they would abandon Hamas. If things are just as bad or worse than before, Hamas will be back.
The idea that you can be critical of Israel without being anti-Semitic is worth exploring......it’s often a claim made on behalf of Israel’s detractors to give themselves legitimacy. Most Jews recognize the language used, the code words, the fake philosophical and political sciences to disguise the true intent, the overwhelming criticism of Israel when their neighbors do far worse on a continuous basis. The hatred of Jews which was once an open subject and considered normal, in fact the fault of the Jews themselves, has now gone undercover in polite society (although is openly virulent in much of the world), the name Jew has been replaced by Zionist and Israel...even Settler.
If you are criticizing Israeli Government policy on repairing roads, education budget or electric vehicle uptake then that is criticism....if it’s over existential threats then that is anti-Semitism...pure and simple
Article on New York Times about Bibi and his "support" of Hamas:
Israelis don't want the two state solution as much as the Palestinians
Israelis don't want the two state solution as much as the Palestinians
Moderator note: I find this an enlightening thread. Please refrain from personal attacks. If your post starts with “You…” it’s on the wrong track.
For those who bother to read the article they will find the following reasons for the payments allowed by Netanyahu's government to the "government" in Gaza/Hamas:
"‘Buying Quiet’:" [in the headline ffs]
"Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu gambled that a strong Hamas (but not too strong) would keep the peace and reduce pressure for a Palestinian state."
"Allowing the payments — billions of dollars over roughly a decade — was a gamble by Mr. Netanyahu that a steady flow of money would maintain peace in Gaza, the eventual launching point of the Oct. 7 attacks, and keep Hamas focused on governing, not fighting."
"The payments were part of a string of decisions by Israeli political leaders, military officers and intelligence officials — all based on the fundamentally flawed assessment that Hamas was neither interested in nor capable of a large-scale attack. "
"The money from Qatar had humanitarian goals like paying government salaries in Gaza and buying fuel to keep a power plant running. "
"Multiple Israeli governments enabled money to go to Gaza for humanitarian reasons, not to strengthen Hamas, an official in Mr. Netanyahu’s office said in a statement. He added: “Prime Minister Netanyahu acted to weaken Hamas significantly. He led three powerful military operations against Hamas which killed thousands of terrorists and senior Hamas commanders.”
"But Mr. Netanyahu’s critics say that his approach to Hamas had, at its core, a cynical political agenda: to keep Gaza quiet as a means of staying in office without addressing the threat of Hamas or simmering Palestinian discontent."
"“The conception of Netanyahu over a decade and a half was that if we buy quiet and pretend the problem isn’t there, we can wait it out and it will fade away,” said Eyal Hulata, Israel’s national security adviser from July 2021 until the beginning of this year."
"This strategy was buttressed by repeated intelligence assessments that Hamas was neither interested in nor capable of launching a significant attack inside Israel."
"Yossi Kuperwasser, a former head of research for Israel’s military intelligence, said that some officials saw the benefits of maintaining an “equilibrium” in the Gaza Strip. “The logic of Israel was that Hamas should be strong enough to rule Gaza,” he said, “but weak enough to be deterred by Israel.” The administrations of three American presidents — Barack Obama, Donald J. Trump and Joseph R. Biden Jr. — broadly supported having the Qataris playing a direct role in funding Gaza operations."
"Every month, the Qatari government would make millions of dollars in cash payments directly to people in Gaza as part of a cease-fire agreement with Hamas. Shin Bet, the country’s domestic security service, would monitor the list of recipients to try to ensure that members of Hamas’s military wing would not directly benefit."
"“For Netanyahu, there is only one thing that is really important: to be in power at any cost,” he said. “To stay in power, he preferred to pay for tranquility.”"
Unfortunately the seemingly reasonable decision to allow aid payments to the Gazan elected Hamas underestimated the religious motivation to use the money at least partially to fund their jihad to kill and maim and rape and terrorize infidels.
