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It's the Batteries, Stupid!

Discussion in 'Battery Discussion' started by vfx, May 15, 2008.

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  1. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    From an Aptera email newsletter:
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    [FONT=Century Gothic, ITC Avant Garde, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Century Gothic, ITC Avant Garde, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
    [/FONT]
    [/FONT]
     
  2. vfx

    vfx Well-Known Member

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  3. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    Wow, quite the relevant find there, even if it was from 15 years ago!
     
  4. vfx

    vfx Well-Known Member

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  5. JRP3

    JRP3 Hyperactive Member

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    More misinformation :rolleyes:
     
  6. domenick

    domenick Nerd

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    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Pretty sure that's an A123 pack. Don't know if it's only for the X Prize entry or whether they will go with them for production (if they survive that long) as well.
     
  7. domenick

    domenick Nerd

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  8. johnr

    johnr Member

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    Battery Power Magazine

    The current issue of Battery Power Magazine can be found here (pdf format):

    http://www.batterypoweronline.com/images/BatterPowerMarchApril2010.pdf

    Inside you'll find, among other things, articles about battery management systems, super-capacitors to extend the life of lithium batteries, lithium battery technologies for plug-in vehicles and safety requirements, plus an advert featuring the Tesla.
     
  9. meloccom

    meloccom Moderator Aus/NZ

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    Hmmm,
    That puts thermal runaway into a whole new class! :eek:
     
  10. JRP3

    JRP3 Hyperactive Member

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    Interesting, but as with almost all of these comparisons, it ignores the amount of energy in petroleum that is actually realized in a vehicle, as well as the amount of energy required to get it there. It's an important omission since simply comparing energy density is only part of the story. Because EV's are so much more efficient than ICE's batteries don't need to have anywhere near the same density.
     
  11. vfx

    vfx Well-Known Member

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    When scarcity drives the price of oil up then storing "free" energy will start looking reeeeeal good.
     
  12. bolosky

    bolosky Member

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    So, I can conclude from this that it simply isn't practical (based on energy storage, not cost) to build a battery-powered electric vehicle, because it can't possibly have sufficient range. Time to give up and go home. I think I'll drive the Roadster. :smile:

    Seriously, though, in addition to missing the point that electrical systems are several times more efficient than combustion-based ones, and so need less energy for the same amount of travel, they're also ignoring the difference in mass of the system needed to convert combustion into motion (engine, injection, exhaust, cooling, multi-gear transmission vs. PEM, motor, one-speed transmission). Maybe their argument makes more sense in a truck, which (maybe) has a much higher fuel-to-powertrain mass ratio.
     
  13. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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  14. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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    #317 stopcrazypp, Mar 23, 2010
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2010
    It also says that he studies carbon capture, which obviously depends on the continual use of fossil fuels.

    The theoretical max for Li-ion at 3MJ/kg is actually 7x better than the Roadster at 0.424 MJ/kg (53kWh = 190.8MJ / 450kg battery).

    It translates to a Roadster battery of 64kg or 142lbs.

    Looking at a typical compact ICE car:
    aluminum I4 = 300lbs
    auto trans = 200lbs
    exhaust = 50 lb
    total = 550lbs

    Roadster powertrain (motor+differential+transmission) is about 160lbs, so you save about 390lbs.

    6.25lbs/gal gas. Typically less than 20 gal tank so 125lbs of fuel in a typical car. So you can carry about 4x the normal fuel weight in an EV of the same weight. Couple that with about 4x the efficiency of a typical ICE and you get a 16x factor for the EV, bringing the 6% of crude oil to 96%, which is pretty close to parity.
     

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