Just got car - noticing more body roll on twisty roads than usual

[CarlK]

The only difference between the Performance and RWD/AWD is wheels and tires (as far as handling goes), so why the exclusion for Performance. Wouldn't it be easier / cheaper to just do the wheels/tires first?

I'd try driving a Performance + to see what it feels like before doing anything.

Even with Aero's the Model 3 feels like it's on rails to me. Although my VW CC (more or less an A5) is no S5 there is no comparison with the Model 3. To much body roll, that's funny. I'm sure 20" sticky tires will bring it up another notch though. I moved from 18" (all season touring) to 19" (also all season touring) and barely notice any difference in handling (didn't really expect to and hoped not to). But I don't drive it like a stole it either.

I will say I doubt switching 18" all season to 20" summer will "fix" body roll. In fact a better gripping tire might roll more

Not sure how much of the 18" (lack of handling) is the side wall vs the rubber. There are quite a few folks that run 18" Michelin PS4S (or similar). Might ask them.

You might very well be right. I said that because there had been many reviews of the performance model by skilled drivers like Randy Pobst on tracks or challenging situations. The impression was it beats the gold standard of performance seden BMW M3 on or off tracks and close to even track oriented sports cars Porsche GT's. At least the performance model can satisfied people with high driving demand. No disagreement that non-performance models are very capable, at least with a set of good tires, too.

Here is one on the Tesla forum from a 3P+ owner who is also a long time Porsche owner and track event instructor. If he could do that on a big track I don't think anyone has a legitimate case of complaining soft handling.

Big track review of Track Mode | Tesla

Just want to add shorter sidewall indeed will make tires flex less. Not sure if this is what op meant by side to side reaction though. A lot things he said weren't very clear.

 

[lotusland]

Unfortunately it's how all Model 3s are, with the exception of the P3D+, if you're used to driving german cars. It's lacking in spirited driving dynamics for a car that can accelerate as quickly as it can. Your only option is going with an aftermarket suspension though lowering springs might help a bit as well.

Have to totally disagree here. I came from a Lotus Elise, the best-handling car on the planet, and my P3D- -- which has the "standard" suspension components -- handles amazingly well. So well that I sold my Elise a few weeks ago. I'm not even considering aftermarket parts at this point. Better tires maybe, when the current tires are shot.

Tesla hit it out of the park with the Model 3 IMO. That is in no way unique to the "+".

 

[TeeEmCee]

That’s not how my LR RWD is. It is very sure footed and handles very well in turns.

harsh ride /= sharp handling

I find that there's a certain predictability and refinement that the Model 3 lacks. No idea what design or geometry aspects cause that, but to me it's not a refined ride.

Perhaps it's the quick steering and the relatively harsh ride that creates that perception that the handling is better than it actually is (I had the same impression in the Giulia), but I don't think it is particularly great. Jumping back and forth between the Model 3 and my Q7 I'd always feel that, while it leans a lot more in turns, the big fat Q7 TDI had a substantially more composed ride.

 

[Leafdriver333]

When driving any car...
Some people appreciate fast lap times.
Some appreciate higher lateral G force.
Some appreciate well balanced handling.
Some appreciate smooth ride.
Some appreciate less body roll.
Some appreciate small wheel/fender gap.
Personally, I like little of everything with the highest emphasis on well balanced handling.

 

[TeeEmCee]

I said that because there had been many reviews of the performance model by skilled drivers like Randy Pobst on tracks or challenging situations.

On a track you're supposed to stand on the throttle or on the brakes, with as little as possible inbetween.

A spirited fun drive along Highway 1 in CA demands different things of the car vs a track run. One is for enjoyment and "the fizz", the other is aimed at squeezing the lowest possible time.

 

[kbecks13]

I've ordered a sway bar for the rear in March and still don't have it from unplugged. How did you get it already? They told me they are waiting until after Tesla Corsa. But still waiting... I can't run both due to scca rules.

I work next door to UP so i am one of their beta testers since i can provide quick feedback and its easy to work on my car. I think they were waiting to get the V2 sway bar set nailed down after getting feedback from Randy Pobst at Tesla Corsa - i'd suggest giving them a ring and see if they have any updates on ship dates (i think its soon!).

 

[Lunares]

The only difference between the Performance and RWD/AWD is wheels and tires (as far as handling goes), so why the exclusion for Performance. Wouldn't it be easier / cheaper to just do the wheels/tires first?

I'd try driving a Performance + to see what it feels like before doing anything.

Even with Aero's the Model 3 feels like it's on rails to me. Although my VW CC (more or less an A5) is no S5 there is no comparison with the Model 3. To much body roll, that's funny. I'm sure 20" sticky tires will bring it up another notch though. I moved from 18" (all season touring) to 19" (also all season touring) and barely notice any difference in handling (didn't really expect to and hoped not to). But I don't drive it like a stole it either.

I will say I doubt switching 18" all season to 20" summer will "fix" body roll. In fact a better gripping tire might roll more

Not sure how much of the 18" (lack of handling) is the side wall vs the rubber. There are quite a few folks that run 18" Michelin PS4S (or similar). Might ask them.

There are differences between the P3D+ and a normal AWD for handling. The P3D+ is lowered (barely) and in doing so they actually have different suspension control arms and slightly different sway bars

Exact suspension differences from the PUP?

Thus discusses most of those

 

[mswlogo]

There are differences between the P3D+ and a normal AWD for handling. The P3D+ is lowered (barely) and in doing so they actually have different suspension control arms and slightly different sway bars

Exact suspension differences from the PUP?

Thus discusses most of those

The suspension is now supposedly the same.
When Performance Wheels came out the tires would not fit other model 3's, so they needed a slight mod that Performance cars already had.
All cars now have that mod or are compatible so that 20" wheels can go on any Model 3 after a certain build date.

Not sure about the 1" drop, if that was a side effect of the mod to fit the tires or a real performance intent.

It's the same suspension. Possibly still adjusted to be 1" lower.

Everything I read is it's the same sway bars. There is no alternate parts for Performance (except Wheels/Tires and Brakes).

Please share the part numbers of the different sway bars.

There was also an offset change for 20" compatibility.

The link you provided was back when there was some difference. I don't know what has what vs build dates. But today they are the same.

 

[Knightshade]

The suspension is now supposedly the same.
When Performance Wheels came out the tires would not fit other model 3's, so they needed a slight mod that Performance cars already had.
All cars now have that mod or are compatible so that 20" wheels can go on any Model 3 after a certain build date.

Not sure about the 1" drop, if that was a side effect of the mod to fit the tires or a real performance intent.

It's the same suspension. Possibly still adjusted to be 1" lower.

Everything I read is it's the same sway bars. There is no alternate parts for Performance (except Wheels/Tires and Brakes).

Please share the part numbers of the different sway bars.

There was also an offset change for 20" compatibility.

The link you provided was back when there was some difference. I don't know what has what vs build dates. But today they are the same.

The P3+ had a 0.39" drop, and different sway bars

I posted the different sway bar PNs in a previous thread shortly after the parts catalog came out.

There's still 2 different rear and front bars in the catalog as of this post FYI-

RR STABAR ASSY, AWD
1044485-00-A

versus

STABAR ASSY, REAR, 16.0MM
1044488-00-A


and front-



FR STABAR ASSY, 29MM x 5.0MM
1144381-00-B


FR STABAR ASSY, 28MM x 5.0MM
1144387-00-A

 

[mswlogo]

The P3+ had a 0.39" drop, and different sway bars

I posted the different sway bar PNs in a previous thread shortly after the parts catalog came out.

There's still 2 different rear and front bars in the catalog as of this post FYI-

RR STABAR ASSY, AWD
1044485-00-A

versus

STABAR ASSY, REAR, 16.0MM
1044488-00-A

and front-

FR STABAR ASSY, 29MM x 5.0MM
1144381-00-B

FR STABAR ASSY, 28MM x 5.0MM
1144387-00-A

You found "different" sway bars alright.

You found the difference in sway bars between RWD and AWD for the rear.

The larger diameter front (1144381-00-B) sway you can find being sold used taken out of multiple RWD.

You can find all of them used from people upgrading to after market except the smaller diameter front 1144387-00-A.
I suspect that might have been used before the suspension change on early Model 3's (all RWD at the time).

One seller shows the larger front (1144381-00-B) compatible with all models (Performance, RWD, AWD).

There is designation of AWD and RWD for the Rear ones in the catalog. But no designation about performance and non performance for the front (or AWD vs RWD).

Suspension is the same between AWD and AWD-P.

 

[Knightshade]

You found "different" sway bars alright.

You found the difference in sway bars between RWD and AWD for the rear.

The larger diameter front (1144381-00-B) sway you can find being sold used taken out of multiple RWD.

You can find all of them used from people upgrading to after market except the smaller diameter front 1144387-00-A.
I suspect that might have been used before the suspension change on early Model 3's (all RWD at the time).

One seller shows the larger front (1144381-00-B) compatible with all models (Performance, RWD, AWD).

There is designation of AWD and RWD for the Rear ones in the catalog. But no designation about performance and non performance for the front (or AWD vs RWD).

Suspension is the same between AWD and AWD-P.

Not entirely correct.


Here's my earlier post, it was made back when Tesla gave more description in the public parts catalog-

All LR motors are the same- MR one is NOT


Specifically check out posts 2 and 3- showing different shock/spring assemblies and different sway bars.

Indeed for the front the 2 bars are RWD vs AWD.

The rear however had one of the two labeled as "For AWD, Non-performance Vehicles"... suggesting AWD got one bar, and RWD/P got the other one.

Likewise the shock/spring assemblies were different for AWD and AWD-P (and different again for RWD, which had 3 different versions for the front and 2 for the rear).

They still are from what I can see in the catalog- Front for example the current catalog lists different Damper ASSY for RWD (several still) and then a DIFFERENT ones for AWD and a DIFFERENT ONE AGAIN for PDM (performance dual motor)




Shame I didn't take a buncha screen shots, but who knew they were gonna pull a bunch of info out of the listings.

 

[mswlogo]

Not entirely correct.

Here's my earlier post, it was made back when Tesla gave more description in the public parts catalog-

All LR motors are the same- MR one is NOT

Specifically check out posts 2 and 3- showing different shock/spring assemblies and different sway bars.

Indeed for the front the 2 bars are RWD vs AWD.

The rear however had one of the two labeled as "For AWD, Non-performance Vehicles"... suggesting AWD got one bar, and RWD/P got the other one.

Likewise the shock/spring assemblies were different for AWD and AWD-P (and different again for RWD, which had 3 different versions for the front and 2 for the rear).

They still are from what I can see in the catalog- Front for example the current catalog lists different Damper ASSY for RWD (several still) and then a DIFFERENT ones for AWD and a DIFFERENT ONE AGAIN for PDM (performance dual motor)

Shame I didn't take a buncha screen shots, but who knew they were gonna pull a bunch of info out of the listings.

Still think it's a lot of speculation. I like this post.

All LR motors are the same- MR one is NOT

Maybe you saw stuff that clearly stated X goes in P and Y Goes in AWD and has since been pulled.

Some changes did exist in RWD's. AWD's are different the RWD. And AWD-P did require some changes for the older design links.
Now there are new Links. And the Models with smaller batteries might have different components to handle the weight difference. And possible running changes. And you could easily catch a transition that went into P (with 20" wheels first).

It surprised me you'd quote the RWD vs AWD Rear Sway bar as a "Performance" difference.
And the front Sway bar you listed, that looks beefier, comes out of RWD cars.

I do recall there was some talk about the RWD Rear Motor is more powerful than the AWD rear motor, but it's the same as the P rear motor.
Maybe some of the confusion is that and it's this different motor that might need a spring or sway bar tweak.

These seem like "tweaks" to balance out small differences in battery weights, motor count, motor weights etc.
And at one point 20" wheels that would not fit initially.

And not really a "Race Track" handling difference.

 

[Knightshade]

It surprised me you'd quote the RWD vs AWD Rear Sway bar as a "Performance" difference.

Why?

The description of one of the bars literally said "For AWD, Non-performance Vehicles"

Meaning the AWD non-P got that bar. And RWD and P got the other one.

So the P and the AWD got a different rear bar, per the parts catalog when it had fuller descriptions.

I do recall there was some talk about the RWD Rear Motor is more powerful than the AWD one, but it's the same as the P.

They were all the same hardware motor-wise.

The speculation was based on EPA HP numbers that seemed to reflect software nerfing of the AWD rear versus the P, since they were physically identical powertrains with identical drive unit PNs.

And not really a "Race Track" handling difference.

You don't think different shock/springs and a different sway bar are race track differences?

I mean multiple companies literally sell those parts to improve race track performance.

Now, how BIG a different they really make on a track? You'd need a competent driver, a stopwatch, and cars with each setup to judge.

But apparently they made enough difference for Tesla to bother developing separate parts despite being desperate to control costs and reduce MFG complexity.

These seem like "tweaks" to balance out small differences in battery weights, motor count, motor weights etc.

The AWD and P have identical battery weights, motor counts, and motor weights though. There's the previously mentioned suspension differences, plus wheels and brakes. That's it in functional hardware. (SW is obviously different, and the couple cosmetic bits like the pedals and alleged spoiler)

 

[mswlogo]

Why?

The description of one of the bars literally said "For AWD, Non-performance Vehicles"

Meaning the AWD non-P got that bar. And RWD and P got the other one.

So the P and the AWD got a different rear bar, per the parts catalog when it had fuller descriptions.

They were all the same hardware motor-wise.

The speculation was based on EPA HP numbers that seemed to reflect software nerfing of the AWD rear versus the P, since they were physically identical powertrains with identical drive unit PNs.

You don't think different shock/springs and a different sway bar are race track differences?

I mean multiple companies literally sell those parts to improve race track performance.

Now, how BIG a different they really make on a track? You'd need a competent driver, a stopwatch, and cars with each setup to judge.

But apparently they made enough difference for Tesla to bother developing separate parts despite being desperate to control costs and reduce MFG complexity.



The AWD and P have identical battery weights, motor counts, and motor weights though. There's the previously mentioned suspension differences, plus wheels and brakes. That's it in functional hardware. (SW is obviously different, and the couple cosmetic bits like the pedals and alleged spoiler)

I could not find anything like "For AWD, Non-performance Vehicles". Maybe I just missed it.

And even if that is true the RWD got that same as P. It's probably more to do with torque on the rear wheels than "Body Roll".

Of course sway bars, shocks and springs make a difference. But these are not those kinds of differences.

And if it was a true "Sportier Suspension" you can bet Telsa/Elon would talk plenty about it.
But all they mention is 0.39" lower.

 

[Knightshade]

I could not find anything like "For AWD, Non-performance Vehicles". Maybe I just missed it.

because they removed the detailed descriptions they originally had in the catalog.

Pretty sure I've mentioned that several times now.

The quoted section is from the thread I linked to, that was made back when the catalog included more details, including that description.

And if it was a true "Sportier Suspension" you can bet Telsa/Elon would talk plenty about it.
But all they mention is 0.39" lower.

What possible reason would there be to lower the suspension a mere 0.39 inches, including developing an entirely different shock/spring assembly for all 4 corners on the P, that did not have anything to do with performance?

Given how minuscule the cosmetic difference is it seems like it'd be insane to go through that much expense and both manufacturing, supply chain, and repair complexity just for looks.

 

[mswlogo]

because they removed the detailed descriptions they originally had in the catalog.

Pretty sure I've mentioned that several times now.

The quoted section is from the thread I linked to, that was made back when the catalog included more details, including that description.




What possible reason would there be to lower the suspension a mere 0.39 inches, including developing an entirely different shock/spring assembly for all 4 corners on the P, that did not have anything to do with performance?

Given how minuscule the cosmetic difference is it seems like it'd be insane to go through that much expense and both manufacturing, supply chain, and repair complexity just for looks.

The 0.39" has to do with the different links and adjustments to fit the wheels (at one point in time anyway)
Now if everything is universal (between AWD and P), I'm not sure why the 0.39" still exists.
But if it is a side effect of sportier springs, shocks and sway bars why wouldn't Tesla mention it !!

Even when prodded for differences all they come with is "binned" motors.

There might be a little sense to the sway bar that goes in P and RWD because of the similar HP the rear puts out.
Still not sure what the 0.39" is for/from. I don't know much about lowering cars. But I assume 0.39" is pretty small.

What you may have saw is some transitions and maybe what is public is now universal. They tweaked things to solve 20" wheels and then rolled those changes into other models. But they still might list some parts for repairs on older cars.

I think you're asserting these discrepancies are "Track Performance" improvements.
I say they are not, because if it was it would be an easy and significant marketing bullet.

 

[Knightshade]

The 0.39" has to do with the different links and adjustments to fit the wheels (at one point in time anyway)

If the height was from the rear links, then it had nothing to do with the shocks or springs.

In which case why would those parts be different at all?

Not to mention some non-P cars had the 20s and the rear links swapped on at a dealer. The car didn't magically drop 0.39" to my knowledge when they did.

Lowering springs are the most common way to change ride height FWIW (and usually you want the shocks to match whatever springs you use).

Now if everything is universal (between AWD and P)

It's not.

The different P vs AWD shock/spring assemblies are still in the parts catalog right now. And labeled as such. I mentioned that like 5 posts ago.

 

[mswlogo]

If the height was from the rear links, then it had nothing to do with the shocks or springs.

In which case why would those parts be different at all?

Not to mention some non-P cars had the 20s and the rear links swapped on at a dealer. The car didn't magically drop 0.39" to my knowledge when they did.

Lowering springs are the most common way to change ride height FWIW (and usually you want the shocks to match whatever springs you use).

It's not.

The different P vs AWD shock/spring assemblies are still in the parts catalog right now. And labeled as such. I mentioned that like 5 posts ago.

And how do you know if those weren't for earlier build dates.

Most parts system, first thing they ask for is what? Give me your VIN !!! They don't ask for Model.
Then they go to the part system and look for the part. Then it says this part X is obsolete and replaced with Part Y.
Then they go to part Y and it says this part is obsolete and replaced with part Z.

None of that type of info is available to public.

You have no idea exactly what part goes in what car and for what reason. You're guessing.

If there was a true sport suspension it would be listed as such.

There might be differences, but they seem minor, if they were significant Tesla would be touting it. Big time.

If you think the '0.39" drop' is their way of saying this car has a "Tuned Sport Suspension" ok.

 

[AcesUp]

You might very well be right. I said that because there had been many reviews of the performance model by skilled drivers like Randy Pobst on tracks or challenging situations. The impression was it beats the gold standard of performance seden BMW M3 on or off tracks and close to even track oriented sports cars Porsche GT's. At least the performance model can satisfied people with high driving demand. No disagreement that non-performance models are very capable, at least with a set of good tires, too.

Here is one on the Tesla forum from a 3P+ owner who is also a long time Porsche owner and track event instructor. If he could do that on a big track I don't think anyone has a legitimate case of complaining soft handling.

Big track review of Track Mode | Tesla

Just want to add shorter sidewall indeed will make tires flex less. Not sure if this is what op meant by side to side reaction though. A lot things he said weren't very clear.

I could be wrong but I think the Teslas that Randy was driving that they were modified by one of the aftermarket tuner companies. Maybe it was Unplugged Performance?
There is NO WAY he’d drive my car and give it the thumbs up.

 

[AcesUp]

harsh ride /= sharp handling

I find that there's a certain predictability and refinement that the Model 3 lacks. No idea what design or geometry aspects cause that, but to me it's not a refined ride.

Perhaps it's the quick steering and the relatively harsh ride that creates that perception that the handling is better than it actually is (I had the same impression in the Giulia), but I don't think it is particularly great. Jumping back and forth between the Model 3 and my Q7 I'd always feel that, while it leans a lot more in turns, the big fat Q7 TDI had a substantially more composed ride.

You are experiencing the same thing as me. The model 3 does not have a “composed ride” at high speeds especially. My previous. Cars give you a lot of confidence on a quick lane change maneuver or when trying to avoid hitting an object on the road .

Maybe to get that it takes years of car engineering and manufacturing experience? The Germans and many European marques do it well. Genesis hired Lotus to help with their chassis setup. Kind of wish Tesla had done the same.

As far as the Model 3 Performance I can’t believe that the only difference is wheel/tire combo and slightly shorter springs. I’d think there are several other components like different dampers, sway bars, etc. however I haven’t driven one to compare it to my SR+ with Aeros