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The example I know of is someone plugging a UMC into a Renault Zoe. This uses the motor windings as part of it's "chameleon" charging system. Now it could be because it's expecting the phases to be out of sync (to match the physical angle of separation of those windings) or it could be that in true 3 phase systems you don't actually need a neutral.
I'm out of my depth here, and I suspect as the Zoe isn't US available there are few people that have the experience to have ripped one apart to give you much more insight.
HankLloydRight
No Roads
I now take that back... I've seen 122 kW in three records.
And in the latest particular case, climate control was not on - so I believe the entire charging current was going to the battery without anything being drawn off immediately.
I believe that was the case with mine as well... it was a minute or so in to the session that it ramped up to, and before I recall any cooling kicking in.
I _THINK_ I saw 124KW briefly at a session I had where I had < 10 miles in the pack, but I didn't get a pic.
scott jones
Member
I suggest re routing power through the deflector dish, and shunt the plasma through the bisard collectors before jumping to warp.
thats all I got after reading all this. I'm "tapped" out.
thats all I got after reading all this. I'm "tapped" out.
I am the person who saw the magic smoke when I tried to charge my Zoe with a Tesla UMC + Blue Commando adaptor.
I don't believe any 3-phase capable EVs actually make use of the L-L voltage; they all charge from each of the three phases separately i.e. they treat it pretty much as 3 independent supplies.
The problem arises in the interpretation of pilot signalling on a Type 2 connector. If the EVSE signals a 32A limit to the car, does that mean that it can draw no more than 32A from each L pin (Renault Zoe interpretation) or that it can put no more than 32A on to any of the 4 power pins i.e. including the neutral (Tesla interpretation).
Basically if you give a Model S the same phase on all 3 of its live pins it draws 10.66A on each phase making 32A on the neutral, but if you give the same to a Zoe it pulls 32A on each live pin, which puts 96A on the neutral. The result in my case was a fused (closed) contactor in the UMC, and magic smoke (probably a safety fuse on the N wire) in the Zoe, which had to go back to Renault for repair.
This behaviour was obviously designed into the EU UMC from the start - if you cut open the cable you find that the conductors for the 3 phases are smaller than the neutral, i.e. the cabling was designed with a 16A limit on each L pin but a 32A limit on N.
I don't know what I'm more surprised about.. the charge rate or someone wearing a tie is reading this thread..
(sorry couldn't resist)
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lolachampcar
Well-Known Member
I don't think it's an unfair assumption on Renault's behalf. You have a 3 phase connector, with a clear design intent for 3 phase (or we would be using Type 1's), and labelled L1, L2, L3 + N. Theoretically you don't even need a neutral, and who knows someone might come up with a design which doesn't need one at some point in the future. (And in fact Renault might not, but we will have to wait for someone with wk057 or Ingineer or JRickard's skills to dismantle one to find out for certain
)We can agree that AFAWK this isn't explicitly stated in the specs for Type-2 what 32A means, at least in terms of phasing, but I think it's a stretch to suggest this is in anyway good practice or envisaged by the standards bodies. We can also agree the real issue is the specs need tying down.
Where we don't agree is if this is a simple oversight. My view is Tesla took a convenient shortcut plain and simple, so I'm not surprised the standards committee and Tesla fell out if this was typical of their cavalier approach to suit their own implementation without adding cost*. This comes at the expense of other potentially more efficient implementations by others who adhere to common working practice of denominating phase using the L1,L2,L3 nomenclature.
(*Which we have discussed before with some additional on board contractors this would have been 100% doable for Tesla to use a single input 32A phase line, but to do so would have been orders of magnitude more expensive than the tying of the pins to a common phase in the UMC).
Either way the moral of the story is don't try to plug a UMC into any other car than a Tesla until someone else has been brave enough to try it first.
These 122 kW were at the 135 kW capable newer superchargers.
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Ok, I got it now. The Zoe expects the current to balance out among the phases, which means the neutral current should be close to zero. It's likely fused at a current that would allow for the failure of one phase and it was exceeded excessively.
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I don't think it's an unfair assumption on Renault's behalf. You have a 3 phase connector, with a clear design intent for 3 phase (or we would be using Type 1's), and labelled L1, L2, L3 + N. Theoretically you don't even need a neutral, and who knows someone might come up with a design which doesn't need one at some point in the future. (And in fact Renault might not, but we will have to wait for someone with wk057 or Ingineer or JRickard's skills to dismantle one to find out for certain
In theory, if the electronics were designed for L-L voltage (400V) instead of L-N voltage (230V), you'd be correct - no neutral needed. But the prevalence of 230V nominal electronics, and the added expense of redesign for higher voltage, makes it a more costly proposition.
Ok, I got it now. The Zoe expects the current to balance out among the phases, which means the neutral current should be close to zero. It's likely fused at a current that would allow for the failure of one phase and it was exceeded excessively.
Not convinced...
The (clever) idea of the Zoe is the motor works like a transformer wired in delta, and it uses the IGBT's in the power circuitry to effectively regen power back into battery. (This is why it can do up to 44kW from AC!)
What I don't understand is how feeding a single phase into each corner of the delta would lead to a current to neutral (and why I'm not convinced with the 96A return path theory). As you asserted earlier it should do nothing!
It is of course possible the chameleon system measures across L1 and L2, sees 0v apparent and goes into single phase mode. (And indeed chameleon name comes from the fact it can act as a rapid on three phase AC and a fairly mundane 7kW unit on single phase) That would be my suggestion of what was the cause of magic smoke, on single phase you are capped at 16A.
Anyway.. this is getting far too Zoe specific.
Just nice to vent some of the geeky techy subjects in a thread like this.
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Responded
No, you need to reset the inertial dampeners and disengage the Heisenberg compensators!
(I'm sorry, I know this post adds zero value to the thread, but I couldn't resist.)
