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shrspeedblade
Rideshare Monkey
If they ever wise up they'll expand the Volt drivetrain into other platforms where they don't even need to complete directly with Tesla, just go after the people who don't want to go full electric but still want great efficiency.
They could easily have an ATS that goes 40+ miles all electric and gets a combined 35+mpg, they just don't want to compete with their gas models.
Red Sage
The Cybernetic Samurai
GM did this already, sort of. The Cadillac ELR was based on the VOLT platform. It was effectively an ATS Coupe with a different drivetrain. Problem was, they asked for a $40,000 premium over the ATS Coupe, then wondered why almost no one bought them. Ultimately, you must understand that GM does not want to actively promote electric vehicles, or even plug-in hybrids to the public at large as a mass market solution. Every one they have built has been for the sake of compliance, and to earn ZEV Credits to trade in toward improving their CAFE rating. That allows them to sell more gas guzzling SUVs and pickup trucks.
Actually, I'd say Model 3 is the iPhone 2 and Model S is the iPhone 3... Interesting business strategy.So Model 3 is the Model S SE?
No. Model S is actually older and full of gizmos while 3 will be newer with newer interface but slightly softer hardware.
I would rather say Model S is Huawei P8max and Model 3 is P9 Lite (or take any other xxx phone vs xxxLite phone comparision)
Huawei P9 lite vs. Huawei P8max - GSMArena.com
For sale at the same time but different market segment.
Model 3 will have newer hardware, especially drivetrain parts. Weaker, but more efficient/cheaper/compact.
Like Intel Core i7 vs i5 - both are awesome just one doesn't have turbo boost.
Tesla's compare page is misleading. Looking at the performance and range numbers, they seem to be comparing the Model S P100D to the Model 3 55. That's not a valid or honest comparison. Here is my version:
Model 3 75D vs Model S 75D:
Model 3 75D vs Model S 75D:
- The Model 3 75D is expected to have 297 mi EPA rated range based on my calculation (see cell AF18 here), compared to 259 in the Model S 75D.
- The Model 3 75D is likely to have better 0-60 time than the Model S 75D because of weight difference.
- The Model 3 will have the new 2170 cells with improved chemistry and higher energy density. (details). The Model S&X are expected to continue with the current 18650 cells for the foreseeable future. I'm expecting that 2170 cells will be a requirement for Supercharger V3 Elon has tweeted about here. I also expect that the 2170 packs will have better cooling than current packs and this will be another requirement for Supercharger V3.
- The Model 3 is expected to have 0.21 drag coefficient (source). The Model S has 0.24 (source). You might say, that's because the Model 3 is smaller. No. Drag coefficient is independent of dimensions. For example, the much smaller Tesla Roadster has 0.35. Drag coefficient shows how efficient the aerodynamic design is.
- The Model 3 will be about 15% more efficient than the Model S. The reason is lower drag coefficient, smaller frontal area, and less weight.
- Because the Model 3 will be about 15% more efficient, it means charging will cost 15% less.
- Model 3 75D supercharge sessions will be 15% shorter than Model S 75D because the Model 3 is more efficient, meaning it requires less kWh to drive the same distance.
- Model 3 75D is expected to be in production at least until the end of 2018 before they upgrade the battery sizes from 55/75 to 60/80 kWh. Model S 75D is expected to be discontinued after Model 3 starts production. My best guess is by the end of this year.
BayArea_David
Member
That was similar to what I told my wife about the Merdedes and Porsche when I was shopping for my car. I didn't even consider BMW and Audi. When I saw some of the interiors of 2016 Mercedes, I just wanted to get out of the dealership as fast as I could. The Porsche Macan/Cayenne had way too many buttons for my taste.
I eventually got a Tesla and couldn't be happier.
Garlan Garner
Banned
That's exactly right.
I posted this very comment in many threads here. One must compare apples to apples.
You can't compare the best car in one class to the least car in another class and call it a valid comparison. I simply can't figure out why Tesla is downplaying the model 3 SO AGGRESIVELY. They didn't even downplay the bolt to this extent. What does Tesla know about the model 3 that we don't know. I have never ever seen a company downplay their own product so hard.....even to the point of making a comparison such as this.
I am certainly getting a Model 3 - only because I am happy with what has been said about the Model 3 - despite what Tesla is trying to do to it. A model S is outside of my budget so I have no choice.
Who out there with a credible source can account for the WHY in what Tesla is doing. The real WHY not speculation please.
Garlan Garner
Banned
Do you have a source for number 8 because Elon quoted that dual motor etc....will be produced much sooner than the end of 2018.
#8 talks about upgrading battery sizes, not when the D models will be produced. It is worded somewhat strange though.
First -off I am not a credible source ... just guessing like all the other Non Tesla employees on this blog ... and even within Tesla it seems only Elon and a select few in Product Line Mgmt could give the real answer ... however here are some ideas as to why the downplay of the Model 3 at this point in time:
1) Manage expectations for the model 3 .... you must admit expectations on this forum are extremely high for a new product line.. the last thing Telsa needs is a bunch of folks expecting get a model S at the price of a model 3 ...
2) Nothing fails like success....Model 3 has huge backlog demand.. so from a manufacturing/delivery point of view huge pressure from both an internal an external POV for Tesla employees... they have to get the model 3 right!!! ....otherwise stock crashes
3) I waited over 6 weeks for my model S to show up ... Model S is in year 6th year of production and it still took over 6 weeks .....and frankly they don't have their act together in the sales/delivery process for the model S... so imagine an order of magnitude more cars to sell/deliver....hard to imagine but they may want to throttle demand a bit .... so they can ramp the M 3 delivery learning curve.
4) Don't forget the Model 3 is a year one vehicle off a new assembly line ....bleeding edge .....again they must get this right ... or their reputation will suffer
5) biggest reason is they make more profit on S and X ... and they are in business to make profit so more S and X means more profit ... they will want/encourage/expect Model 3 owners to eventually upgrade to Model S or X .. again more profit!!!!
6) what are you worrying about? ... you will be getting off Oil and ICE with the M3 ... you win and the planet wins either way
Garlan Garner
Banned
Ok. . you are in timeout.
Anyone mentioning HUD is in timeout. No more posting for you for a MONTH. lol
Brando
Active Member
I suspect Tesla will maximize volume for the near future. Make as many and try to sell as many as possible.
They have plenty of ways to stimulate sales, if needed. Now they are still trying to meet demand and I only see demand going up as more people learn about the benefits and continuous improvements. Fleet sales might easily take up slack if needed. Model 3 platform might do well as small pickup or SUV at min. development costs.
Model Y may well be a new price point with significant manufacturing cost savings, we shall have to wait and see.
These increase in volumes all require new GigaFactories and adding factories on each continent certainly possible. Not to for get storage as well. Mercedes and VW are the only ones seeming to slowly wake up to this need for batteries. Might suppliers ramp up fast enough to supply OEMs with enough batteries? Not so sure suppliers could afford the risk. We shall see.
Inverters may also be a Tesla advantage. SolarCity reports a 10% inverter failure rate and claim to have tried everyone trying to find a lower failure rate. I haven't seen any indication that the cars have had inverter failures. Can someone tell us why PV solar would have such high failure rates and why not the cars? How different are these inverters? Is it temperature control?
They have plenty of ways to stimulate sales, if needed. Now they are still trying to meet demand and I only see demand going up as more people learn about the benefits and continuous improvements. Fleet sales might easily take up slack if needed. Model 3 platform might do well as small pickup or SUV at min. development costs.
Model Y may well be a new price point with significant manufacturing cost savings, we shall have to wait and see.
These increase in volumes all require new GigaFactories and adding factories on each continent certainly possible. Not to for get storage as well. Mercedes and VW are the only ones seeming to slowly wake up to this need for batteries. Might suppliers ramp up fast enough to supply OEMs with enough batteries? Not so sure suppliers could afford the risk. We shall see.
Inverters may also be a Tesla advantage. SolarCity reports a 10% inverter failure rate and claim to have tried everyone trying to find a lower failure rate. I haven't seen any indication that the cars have had inverter failures. Can someone tell us why PV solar would have such high failure rates and why not the cars? How different are these inverters? Is it temperature control?
I suspect that Tesla will do this by being really strict about options. I've already dismissed being able to option a Model 3 like I would be able to option its German equivalents as a possibility. I reckon if they could make it one color and one set of options without receiving backlash, they would (a la the Model T).
Red Sage
The Cybernetic Samurai
1) My expectation is a simple one, that should be easily attainable. I expect the Tesla Model ☰ will topple the BMW 3-Series as the world leader in sales among 'entry level luxury' vehicles while also supplanting it as the 'benchmark' for driving excellence.
2) People have predicting stock crashes for TSLA since a week before its IPO. You can ask Jim Cramer how well that has worked out for him. Everything that outsiders predict will fail at Tesla ends up being a success instead. Logic defeats rhetoric, every time.
3) Tesla went from building the Roadster at maybe 600 vehicles per year to building 700+ per week in the course of the first eighteen months after the launch of Model S. They now build on the order of 2,000 units per week of Model S and Model X combined. There used to be around a three month wait to get a newly ordered Model S four years ago. Early in a quarter, a highly optioned new Model S typically can be received within a month of ordering. You can get an inventory car or CPO within about two weeks. And the Model S and Model X were designed 'just to work', not for mass production. Tesla originally expected to sell around 20,000 units of those cars per year worldwide -- combined. They are on pace to more than double that in 2017 -- for U.S. sales alone. Customers who endure 'The WAIT' for a Tesla Model S or Model X are no more inconvenienced than someone who orders a custom Porsche Panamera.
4) Tesla and all their employees are perfectly aware of what the Model ☰ represents for the company. None of them are working so hard to achieve failure as a result. The only taint on their reputation is the FUD continually spewed by Naysayers.
5) At Tesla profit is a side effect, not a goal. Offer great products and people will buy them. Simple. If there is no compelling reason to purchase them, profit will never be realized.
6) No worries. Remain calm. All is well.
2) People have predicting stock crashes for TSLA since a week before its IPO. You can ask Jim Cramer how well that has worked out for him. Everything that outsiders predict will fail at Tesla ends up being a success instead. Logic defeats rhetoric, every time.
3) Tesla went from building the Roadster at maybe 600 vehicles per year to building 700+ per week in the course of the first eighteen months after the launch of Model S. They now build on the order of 2,000 units per week of Model S and Model X combined. There used to be around a three month wait to get a newly ordered Model S four years ago. Early in a quarter, a highly optioned new Model S typically can be received within a month of ordering. You can get an inventory car or CPO within about two weeks. And the Model S and Model X were designed 'just to work', not for mass production. Tesla originally expected to sell around 20,000 units of those cars per year worldwide -- combined. They are on pace to more than double that in 2017 -- for U.S. sales alone. Customers who endure 'The WAIT' for a Tesla Model S or Model X are no more inconvenienced than someone who orders a custom Porsche Panamera.
4) Tesla and all their employees are perfectly aware of what the Model ☰ represents for the company. None of them are working so hard to achieve failure as a result. The only taint on their reputation is the FUD continually spewed by Naysayers.
5) At Tesla profit is a side effect, not a goal. Offer great products and people will buy them. Simple. If there is no compelling reason to purchase them, profit will never be realized.
6) No worries. Remain calm. All is well.
#5 ) Is starting to sound a bit like dot-com bubble talk
looks like you replied to my post point for point... seems like your thinking i am am a naysayer .... if you read original question it was why all the M3 anti-selling from Telsa ... I do like your responses for the bull case however ... go Tesla!!!!
