Letter To Elon Musk Regarding P85D Horsepower – Discussion Thread

[omarsultan]

I'll just chime in here and +1 sorka's post to point out that the API behavior is pretty well known.

Trying to say the API data is not valid for this discussion is just ridiculous and I'd highly suggest some research in the area before assuming so.

I'd happily give the power values from the API a +/- 2% margin for error... and that's being pessimistic. As far as I can tell the power values are based on data from the current shunt and voltage readings inside the battery pack. It's not going to get much more accurate than this.

Not actually what I said. I understand quite a bit about programmatic APIs, data models and streaming telemetry. Consistency of the API calls is not an issue--I would hope values are consistent. I am simply pointing out that, you are making some assumptions about what those values represent, and in the absence of any API docs or the telemetry policy, its worthwhile documenting those assumptions as part of any discussion.

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Thanks Andy...

 

[brianman]

Just a small reminder...the whole 'expectation' thing works both ways. I've seen many people on here expect things that Tesla NEVER said/implied/promised/marketed/or otherwise. Just one example off the top of my head is the use of TACC in situations it was NEVER intended to be used, for which there is documented instructions, and yet people complaining it doesn't 'work' to sort and fold their laundry. Or the people who have deluded themselves into thinking Autopilot means they'll be able to have a nap on the way to their destination and if they can't - well, by golly, Tesla is going to hear about it!

Bad behavior doesn't justify bad behavior.

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@omar
Based on past experience and (my relatively light) data analysis, I already trust the REST data more than any number published at teslamotors.com in webpage form. I suspect some others on here might agree.

 

[Electroman]

An Aussie had to Google 'Ashes'?

Not a good sign for Test Cricket !

 

[smac]

An Aussie had to Google 'Ashes'?

Not a good sign for Test Cricket !

He obviously doesn't read the newspapers

Ashes 2015: Australian newspapers and fans tear into Michael Clarke's side | Daily Mail Online

 

[Auzie]

He obviously doesn't read the newspapers

Ashes 2015: Australian newspapers and fans tear into Michael Clarke's side | Daily Mail Online

Who needs newspapers when we have internet

I do not qualify as he

 

[smac]

I do not qualify as he

Sorry :redface:

I guess my point about the newspapers, was it was quite big news in Oz though. (I have work colleagues in Sydney, and it was quite a hot topic, but then we did get similar teasing over the rugby :wink

 

[Auzie]

A bit like the Ashes

(Sorry couldn't resist)

Sorry :redface:

Hey smac I appreciate that you can say sorry, I forgive you (there's not much to forgive) for past and future transgressions, no need for any more sorries in this sorry thread

An Aussie had to Google 'Ashes'?

Not a good sign for Test Cricket !

I was not joking when I said that I had to google Ashes. I am really not familiar with Ashes, and after googling it, Ashes is not my cup of tea.

Just saying all that to show how easily people make assumptions and how easily people that do make assumptions get it wrong. There were so many assumptions made by posters in this thread.

It would be nice if people that do make assumptions and get it wrong, learn from smac not to blame someone else for confusing them, but to own up to their wrong assumptions and handle such situations as adults.

 

[Alipapa]

So Tesla and Elon are not going to respond?

 

[Matias]

So Tesla and Elon are not going to respond?

Apparently no.

 

[Alipapa]

very surprised by how this is being handled by Tesla and Elon.

Not good business ethic...

 

[dsm363]

There is basically nothing they can say or do outside free hardware or a new car that will make everyone happy. Apparently even the Ludicrous mode doesn't make the combined 'motor power' number that was initially advertised and some expected.

 

[Andyw2100]

There is basically nothing they can say or do outside free hardware or a new car that will make everyone happy. Apparently even the Ludicrous mode doesn't make the combined 'motor power' number that was initially advertised and some expected.

So not addressing the issue at all, and hoping the customers asking for answers will just stop asking is the correct approach to take?

 

[omarsultan]

Coming from the perspective of someone who has been on the receiving end of these types of customer communications, the letter posted is not conducive to a quick response.

Comments like

The fact remains, though, that many Tesla P85D customers have not received everything they have paid for.

and

Tesla did not correct these stories. Tesla allowed the world, and more importantly Tesla customers to believe the P85D would make 691 HP.

imply fraud on the part of Tesla which opens all sorts of good things from regulatory review to class-action lawsuits and is going to likely cause this to be routed to the legal folks. Their goal in life is not to provide you with a quick response but to protect the company. As this is all unfolding in a very public forum it severely restricts how the company can engage.

Ironically, the argument hinges on two pieces of empirical data which would have been easy to prove/disprove without the above complications:
- the power at the wheel measurements from VBOX
- the power number reported by the streaming telemetry feed

IMO, I don't think the VBOX measurements are any kind of smoking gun--as has been discussed before, you are essentially measuring horsepower at the wheel, while manufacturers typically report power at the shaft before its subjected to the vagaries of the transmission and the tire-to-road interface.

I think the most interesting questions that came out of this thread is related to the "power" value from the ST interface. What is it actually reporting? Is it working properly? If so, why the discrepancy between reported and expected values?

Any kind of response if going to involve Legal and Communications providing an initial assessment, engineering pulling the data, test results, etc, communications drafting a response, and legal reviewing the response, with all this work getting prioritized against all the other things the company is working on. As they are presumably in the midst of the ramp up for the MX launch, some patience may be in order.

 

[dsm363]

So not addressing the issue at all, and hoping the customers asking for answers will just stop asking is the correct approach to take?

Didn't say it was correct. Just anything they say would certainly be used against them. And they have many bigger issues to handle than this anyway.

If you have the solution that doesn't cost Telsa millions of dollars please share.

 

[Andyw2100]

Didn't say it was correct. Just anything they say would certainly be used against them. And they have many bigger issues to handle than this anyway.

If you have the solution that doesn't cost Telsa millions of dollars please share.

Some sort of a response along the lines of, "We have received your letter. We can appreciate your concerns. We're investigating the issues, and will be getting back to you." would be a more appropriate response than no response at all.

As far as the ultimate resolution goes, it may well cost Tesla millions of dollars to rectify the issue. But it is an issue they brought upon themselves. And one of the things I feel most strongly about is that the longer Tesla buries their heads in the sand, hoping this will go away, the more it is likely to cost them in the long run, in many different ways. Address the issue head on, take the lumps, pay the price, and move on.

That is the general strategy I would suggest.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

It's pretty clear to me that Tesla doesn't believe that anything it could do or say regarding this situation would satisfy the complainants. Indeed, the types of hypothetical responses from Tesla that I've seen bandied about would only add credibility to the complaint rather than do anything to resolve the issue or pacify complainants. It's a no-win situation for Tesla hence the silence.

The folks in the EU who complained about the acceleration at least were able to get Tesla to look into the situation to determine if anything goofy was going on with the software. Maybe they approached their issue in a different manner? I don't know.

 

[president_ltd]

It's pretty clear to me that Tesla doesn't believe that anything it could do or say regarding this situation would satisfy the complainants.

Indeed. As a P85D owner I'm totally fine with how the car behaves. As far as I'm concerned, its to spec. To me its very clear that the car acceleration behaves differently based on SOC and battery temperature. Not rocket science.

Maybe the complainers would like Tesla to disable traction control and go through >$1K of rubber? There's no pleasing some. Mind boggling.

 

[Andyw2100]

Indeed. As a P85D owner I'm totally fine with how the car behaves. As far as I'm concerned, its to spec. To me its very clear that the car acceleration behaves differently based on SOC and battery temperature. Not rocket science.

Maybe the complainers would like Tesla to disable traction control and go through >$1K of rubber? There's no pleasing some. Mind boggling.

No, we'd just like the car to produce the horsepower it was advertised as having. That's all.

If you believe the car is "to spec", that's your right. Many of us believe you are wrong, but we're not calling you names as you are doing when you call us "complainers."

Some of us expect Tesla to deliver what they promised to deliver. I'm not sure what's hard to understand about that, or why some people find that position so offensive.

 

[darthy001]

Based on Teslas response to the danes I have absolutely lost all hope for anything positive to come from Tesla on this. At least in general or official terms.

The fact that Tesla spent a big portion of that response bragging about performance improvements in high altitude environments is just incredible... Or even adding to the insult there.

Denmark is completely FLAT....... There is no single area in that country even remotely close to being at high altitude. Of course no mention of the actual issue with horsepower just adds to the point. Denmark has the best case as well due to it being advertised as 700hp without "motor power" there initially as well.

Tesla has chosen its path here, and that is the "lets try to bury this without addressing it"-path.. Not very surprising to be honest, but I was hoping to be positively suprised here.

Personally I will pursue my own independant path with Tesla here since they still havent delivered my nextgen seats in full(soon 7months after delivery), but I wont bother with any legal options. What I might do though is to involve mainstream media in Norway if nothing positive comes from my own efforts. I have contacts in both the main newspapers and the two major commercial tv-broadcasters here in Norway... Some of these have been wanting for something negative to report on Tesla for a long time.....

That said I still like the car and Teslas end goal too much to intentionally inflict them pain like this. Same reason I havent let any of my media-contacts know about this whole situation in the first place since they would have been all over it many of them being big petrols heads...

edit: to clarify point about going to media. That would mainly be angled towards the missing seats and poor follow-up. Missing horsepower would only be mentioned if it could be worked in as a sub-plot of false advertising and not a "big boy unhappy with his toy"-type angle

 

[jpet]

There is an opening however and it's from Elon. Hopefully it is a first step in the direction to make the missing horsepower issue right. The fact that his office produced an answer, proves that he is aware of our group not being satisfied with the current state of things. During interviews he regularly claims to be very much interested in learning from negative feedback. The Loudicrous-update is not being rolled out yet so there is still the option for Tesla to handle this in a better way than having us pay 5K + labor to get our cars closer to what was promised to us when we ordered. Let's try to keep a positive mindset and give Tesla a chance to deal with it in a way that satisfies both parties. Maybe they just need some more time to come up with the best solution. They have a lot going on right now with the launch of both the Model X and V7.