Letter To Elon Musk Regarding P85D Horsepower – Discussion Thread

[Andyw2100]

Actually, it was a simple question asked without malice. If the motor horsepower issue deserved a letter then it would seem a 1/4 miss, if it comes to pass that it is truly a miss, would seem to deserve a letter as well. If you do not have an L then you have no dog in the fight and thus I could understand why you would not be writing.

Not sure why the "go to" was personal attack as that is not my MO.

The letter was a last resort, after many, many people had been writing to Tesla inquiring about the issue for months, and getting no response. So in light of that, and the history we have in discussing this topic, it did seem like suggesting I'd be writing about the 1/4 mile issue too, when my signature file and all my posts indicate I don't have an L, did seem like a bit of a personal attack.

I'm glad to hear it was not intended that way, and I apologize for thinking that it was.

 

[Krugerrand]

Why the personal attack Lola? Totally uncalled for.

? He asked a question. How is that a personal attack? *does not get it*

 

[Stoneymonster]

? He asked a question. How is that a personal attack? *does not get it*

Poeple are getting twitchy 'round here. We need a distraction...

 

[Andyw2100]

? He asked a question. How is that a personal attack? *does not get it*

First of all a question could easily be a personal attack. I'd give an example, but it would be moved to snippiness.

Second of all, as I already explained, in light of all the history between us on this issue, and the fact that I'd have no reason to be writing to Musk on this issue, it was not completely out of left field to view the question as being made sarcastically and accusingly, in which case it would have been an attack. At least two of us viewed it that way, and I expect others did too.

And lastly, when lola said it wasn't a personal attack I accepted that and apologized. Did you really need to weigh in almost an hour later? What reason would you have to do that, other than to stir the pot?

 

[lolachampcar]

No need to apologize but thank you. I understand the misunderstanding. With the lack of face to face, body language and the like, I just wanted all to know is was not intended to remotely be an attack.

It is harder for me to get from Motor HP -> Expected Performance -> not delivering -> writing a letter signed my multiple owners. It is much easier for me to understand Quoted 1/4 time -> inability to confirm in the field -> upset customer. The second is more of a pure quantitative path thus easier for me to understand.

Not having a L (my bad) and not going through all the other attempts to escalate the issue at Tesla makes a bunch of sense.

 

[Jallum.pa.us]

It seems a bit to me to be a distinction without a difference: In neither case does it appear that the car is making it's rated number in the field. I would think that we're beginning to see the same way, just about different numbers.

 

[MsElectric]

With all the discussions about HP, 1/4 mile times, 0-60 times, and trap speeds not meeting the expectations for some based on the information published by Tesla, I am curious as to how the similar stats published by Porsche, Mercedes AMG, Ferrari/Lamborghini and other exotics match up with real world tests by owners.

Do these other cars match or beat the manufacturer specs in real world tests (take a stock car with stock wheels/tires to a drag strip and nail it) or with the other cars do they represent more of maximum theoretical performance given ideal conditions special tires/wheels/exacting PSI and perhaps a 60 pound horse jockey being the test driver with a slight tail wind?

 

[lolachampcar]

Other high end exotics lie out the rear :0
Ferrari routinely provides "magazine cars" to automotive journalists. The production cars almost never reproduce the magazine's numbers.

The big rub for me is what others have mentioned. Tesla has beat previous 1/4 and 0-60 numbers for the P versions in the past. This time, they promised a crazy number (a ten second 5K lb sedan really is crazy) and, so far, have not come close to having one of their customers reproduce the 1/4 mile number.

It is not that others do it but that Tesla may now have done it.

 

[dsm363]

It is harder for me to get from Motor HP -> Expected Performance -> not delivering -> writing a letter signed my multiple owners. It is much easier for me to understand Quoted 1/4 time -> inability to confirm in the field -> upset customer. The second is more of a pure quantitative path thus easier for me to understand.

Not having a L (my bad) and not going through all the other attempts to escalate the issue at Tesla makes a bunch of sense.

Exactly. A hp number is a number that one can deduce a level of performance giving certain variables. The assumption was obviously wrong as we know now helped by Tesla's vague wording and lack of clear disclaimers.
Actual performance is actual performance. If Tesla is missing those then write a letter. The other stuff seems to me is a lesson in accepting that manufacturers sometime put things in a rosy light. In fact some of the people complaining are blown away by the performance and wouldn't even be upset if it weren't for this thread.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Other high end exotics lie out the rear :0
Ferrari routinely provides "magazine cars" to automotive journalists. The production cars almost never reproduce the magazine's numbers.

Being a reader of Jalopnik, I am well aware of that. The thing is the buyers don't seem to care. They use the numbers mainly for bragging rights, so the higher they are advertised, the better for them (that their own car doesn't make it doesn't really matter to them).

 

[dsm363]

This is largely an issue of lack of clear advertising standards. If one company is absolutely truthful and realistic in certain numbers then their cars look 'weak' compared to the other performance cars. It's sad but unilateral disarmament might actually hurt sales even if it is more accurate. And from what we know Tesla did follow a regulation so number wasn't just made up.

 

[LetsGoFast]

It is much easier for me to understand Quoted 1/4 time -> inability to confirm in the field -> upset customer. The second is more of a pure quantitative path thus easier for me to understand.

If the 1/4 only gets 0.2 faster, I'll be seriously annoyed. That's unambiguous factual claims that would have failed.

 

[darthy001]

Crosspost from other thread:

I will try to end my "contribution" to these threads by stating one fact:

There is only one slightly comparable car on the market today. The Mercedes SLS Electric. A european car from a european company adhering to the european standards. It has 4/four motors and more power than the P85D. And it goes like a bat out of hell at high speeds.

Mercedes lists it with BOTH combined motor power AND battery power. <- it can be done!

Tesla has never listed the battery power for the P85D or the P90DL.

Does anyone not see why Tesla has deliberatly chosen _not_ to list battery power?

For me this says it all. Tesla could easily have cleared this up in the same manner as other manufacturers list power in multimotor EVs. But they _chose_ not to.....

 

[dsm363]

Crosspost from other thread:

I will try to end my "contribution" to these threads by stating one fact:

There is only one slightly comparable car on the market today. The Mercedes SLS Electric. A european car from a european company adhering to the european standards. It has 4/four motors and more power than the P85D. And it goes like a bat out of hell at high speeds.

Mercedes lists it with BOTH combined motor power AND battery power. <- it can be done!

Tesla has never listed the battery power for the P85D or the P90DL.

Does anyone not see why Tesla has deliberatly chosen _not_ to list battery power?

For me this says it all. Tesla could easily have cleared this up in the same manner as other manufacturers list power in multimotor EVs. But they _chose_ not to.....

Can you provide a link? Their website shows this (or is the 751hp the actual hp at the shaft)

 

[darthy001]

Can you provide a link? Their website shows this (or is the 751hp the actual hp at the shaft)
View attachment 96945

Of course From the same page you visited http://www.mercedes-amg.com/webspecial/sls_e-drive/eng.php:

Same numbers on wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_SLS_AMG

 

[dsm363]

Of course From the same page you visited http://www.mercedes-amg.com/webspecial/sls_e-drive/eng.php
Same numbers on wikipedia:View attachment 96948

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_SLS_AMG

Thanks. Seems odd to me that a car with 200+ more real hp and weighing 200 lbs less would accelerate to 60 in a full second less than P90DL
Mercedes-Benz SLS AMG Electric Drive [w/video]

It does cost an extra $400,000 dollars for the extra hp.

 

[MuppetOwl]

The Mercedes has a real 0-60 time without rollout so P85D is 0.4 faster and P90DL is 0.7. If you look at the top gear video, the SLS electric seems to be much faster from 80 mph (128 kph)
Petrol vs Electric - Mercedes SLS AMG Battle - Top Gear - Series 20 - BBC - YouTube

So the drive ratio may be the case why its slower from 0-60

 

[darthy001]

Thanks. Seems odd to me that a car with 200+ more real hp and weighing 200 lbs less would accelerate to 60 in a full second less than P90DL
Mercedes-Benz SLS AMG Electric Drive [w/video]

It seems to be differently geared towards high speed instead of high acceleration.

Its almost a full minute, and thats a lot, faster than the P85D around the ring: http://www.gizmag.com/mercedes-sls-amg-e-drive-nurburgring/27848/
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...P85D-does-sub-9-minute-BTG-run-at-Nurburgring


Edit: Dennis beat me to it

 

[MuppetOwl]

Also look like the SLS has a 0-100 Km/h time of 3.9 sec and not 0-60 mph. Thats 0-62 mph.
Mercedes-Benz SLS AMG Coupé Electric Drive: Electrifying - the world's most powerful electric super sports car | Daimler Global Media Site > Brands & Products > Mercedes-Benz Cars > Motor Shows

So if the SLS is from zero the time is not to bad. The P85D use 3.68 sec on the real 0-100 km/h (0-62 mph) test using vbox, so the difference is only 0.22 sec. Mercedes never use rollout on the cars in Europe so think the time is correct.

 

[vgrinshpun]

Thanks. Seems odd to me that a car with 200+ more real hp and weighing 200 lbs less would accelerate to 60 in a full second less than P90DL
Mercedes-Benz SLS AMG Electric Drive [w/video]

It does cost an extra $400,000 dollars for the extra hp.

Actually, there is a lot to be gleaned from the comparison between P90DL and Mercedes SLS Electric. I do not have time at the moment to elaborate, but will do so later. The crux of it is that although Mercedes listed "potential" electrical rating of the battery, it also listed combined output of the motors, exactly the way Tesla did. The "potential" output of the battery listed as 600kW, for a 60kWh battery. This yields discharge rate of 10C - I suspect that these batteries will not be able to sustain it for more than a fraction of the second. This is not nearly enough time to put any appreciable mark on acceleration performance of the 4700lb car. The bottom line is that if P85D owners who signed letter to Elon Musk would saw P85D specs presented in a way Mercedes did it, they would go even more ballistic... This does not mean that neither Tesla nor Mercedes set out to mislead anybody.

I will try to put my thoughts together and write a detailed post some time this week, but in general, doing analysis of the EV specs based on the experience in ICE technology is the same as trying to force a square peg in a round hole: no matter how big of a mallet is used it just does not work.

And lastly, I know that all the arguing that is going on around this subject looks like endless futile exercise, but I think that there is actually a room for a constructive conclusion to this conversation, which would be a positive outcome for everybody involved