Level 3

[diplomat33]

So to summarize this Mercedes level 3 system, not released yet, in development:

• Only works in Germany
• Needs to be in an HD mapped highway
• In moderate to high traffic situations
• Stays in one lane, no lane changes
• Have to always be ready to take over in 10 seconds
• Well-marked lane lines only

Yes.

I know some of you might be thinking that this L3 sounds pretty sucky because it is so restricted. We need to remember that for L3/4/5, the auto maker is saying, "You can totally trust the car to handle all the driving when it is turned on." That's a big promise to the customer. It's telling the customer that there is nothing that the car can't handle safely. The auto maker is also assuming all liability if there is an accident. So auto makers are not going to release L3/4/5 until they are positive that it is totally safe in every situation. So if L3 is so restricted, it is only because companies like Mercedes want to control the conditions to make absolutely sure that the system will be totally safe in every situation.

 

[DanCar]

..., where Elon has stated that their next big update for the FSD system will be turns at intersections. ...

Where did Elon say this?

 

[Eno Deb]

So here is why I think no one is actually ahead of Tesla right now.

This level 3 system that Mercedes is advertising is nice but it's only L3 in basically a traffic jam, other than that is is L2 on highways. This is where a lot of manufacturers fall behind Tesla in my opininon and that is because almost all of their autopilot systems is based on highway driving.

But being able not to constantly pay attention on long highway drives or in the daily traffic jams would be a fantastic feature. You could watch movies or something. Tesla does not allow that (and isn't nearly reliable enough to do it even if you ignore their restrictions).

 

[Cybermoose]

Where did Elon say this?

 

[Cybermoose]

But being able not to constantly pay attention on long highway drives or in the daily traffic jams would be a fantastic feature. You could watch movies or something. Tesla does not allow that (and isn't nearly reliable enough to do it even if you ignore their restrictions).

So we are trusting a system that isnt released over a system that averages less than 1 accident every 4,000,000 miles when engaged? I would gladly allow a tesla to drive me through a traffic jam, I actively keep up to date on Tesla autopilot incidents and I dont see one where a Tesla hits someone while driving in that kind on scenario.

 

[Eno Deb]

So we are trusting a system that isnt released over a system that averages less than 1 accident every 4,000,000 miles when engaged?

When supervised by humans. Autopilot still has plenty of problems (e.g. phantom braking, merging/splitting lanes, detecting stationary objects in your lane etc.). You'd have to be crazy to use this without constant supervision, which is what an L3 system would allow you to do within the ODD.

 

[DanCar]

Thanks!
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1258306242151211008

 

[diplomat33]

So here is why I think no one is actually ahead of Tesla right now.

This level 3 system that Mercedes is advertising is nice but it's only L3 in basically a traffic jam, other than that is is L2 on highways. This is where a lot of manufacturers fall behind Tesla in my opininon and that is because almost all of their autopilot systems is based on highway driving. Take your car off of the highway most of these cars will require you to take over. Tesla has been able to drive itself where there are lines for a long time, they have now released a beta for stop signs and traffic lights. Soon they will release their entire rework of the their system which is supposed to be leaps and bounds ahead of the current system which I already don't see any other manufacturer with a system that touches the current.

As for the auto park feature; Tesla has auto park and is working on improving it. There is no evidence that Mercedes will be able to park without ever once hitting another vehicle, but Tesla has at least proved that it is capable of doing so almost every single time it's ever asked to by countless youtubers.

The biggest restriction that Tesla has for L3 and L4 parking is regulations and perfecting the minor details.

If it becomes legal for Mercedes to do L3 in traffic jams and L4 parking, I'd bet that Tesla will be like "we can already do that, just give us the same test"

The biggest difference if that happens is that Mercedes and other makes will still be limited to highways and parking lots, where Elon has stated that their next big update for the FSD system will be turns at intersections. I wouldn't be surprised if by the time Mercedes is ready for L3 in traffic jams, Tesla is ready for L3 for all highway driving.

In a nutshell, there is a big difference between the system can do X but you need to supervise and the system can do X and you don't need to supervise.

If you are just measuring progress by what X is, sure Tesla is ahead. Tesla's AP can certainly do a lot and do it almost everywhere. But the driver needs to always pay attention. That is the big difference between L2 and L3/4/5. These system that are L3 might look similar to Tesla but they don't require the driver to pay attention. L3/4/5 means that when the system is on, the driver is a passenger. They can do other stuff because the car is completely responsible for all the driving. That's the big attraction of L3/4/5. If your metric of progress is I want to be able to text/browse/read a book/answer email while the car drives, then these L3/4/5 systems will be ahead of Tesla.

Also, in order to be L3/4/5, you are saying that the car is totally responsible and can handle ALL the driving when it is on. So it is not good enough for Tesla to say "we can do that too". I am not convinced of that. To be L3/4/5, it would need to be so good that the car can totally handle everything that happens on the road. In order for Tesla to release L3 on all highways, they would need to be confident that while the system is on, the driver does not need to pay attention to the road at all, and only needs to pay attention when prompted to. That's a tall order. The reason Autopilot is still L2 is because while it is good in a lot of situations, Tesla is not ready yet to say that the driver can be a passenger.

The fact that Mercedes says that auto park will be L4, they are saying that auto park will not hit anything. They are promising that their auto park can handle anything completely on its own with no driver supervision.

 

[Cybermoose]

When supervised by humans. Autopilot still has plenty of problems (e.g. phantom braking, merging/splitting lanes, detecting stationary objects in your lane etc.). You'd have to be crazy to use this without constant supervision, which is what an L3 system would allow you to do within the ODD.

I don't see why Mercedes would immediately be superior to Tesla. Everyone i've seen post about the system Mercedes is still developing, it apparently has 0 faults. I know Tesla gets the most media attention when something goes wrong, but I don't see any other system without faults that are equal to the faults of a Tesla on autopilot.

 

[Eno Deb]

I don't see why Mercedes would immediately be superior to Tesla.

To give two examples: the Audi A8 that was supposed to be the first L3 car had a front facing LIDAR, which would allow it to reliably detect stationary objects in the lane. So far Tesla can't do that. Another example is the use of HD maps, which would take out a lot of the guesswork e.g. where to go when the lane is splitting. Another thing that Tesla currently can't reliably do.

I know Tesla gets the most media attention when something goes wrong

There may be a reason for that. Other car makers are far less willing to take the risk of releasing immature and potentially unsafe features to customers than Tesla is. That doesn't necessarily mean that they are behind.

 

[Cybermoose]

In a nutshell, there is a big difference between the system can do X but you need to supervise and the system can do X and you don't need to supervise.

If you are just measuring progress by what X is, sure Tesla is ahead. Tesla's AP can certainly do a lot and do it almost everywhere. But the driver needs to always pay attention. That is the big difference between L2 and L3/4/5. These system that are L3 might look similar to Tesla but they don't require the driver to pay attention. L3/4/5 means that when the system is on, the driver is a passenger. They can do other stuff because the car is completely responsible for all the driving. That's the big attraction of L3/4/5. If your metric of progress is I want to be able to text/browse/read a book/answer email while the car drives, then these L3/4/5 systems will be ahead of Tesla.

Also, in order to be L3/4/5, you are saying that the car is totally responsible and can handle ALL the driving when it is on. So it is not good enough for Tesla to say "we can do that too". I am not convinced of that. To be L3/4/5, it would need to be so good that the car can totally handle everything that happens on the road. In order for Tesla to release L3 on all highways, they would need to be confident that while the system is on, the driver does not need to pay attention to the road at all, and only needs to pay attention when prompted to. That's a tall order. The reason Autopilot is still L2 is because while it is good in a lot of situations, Tesla is not ready yet to say that the driver can be a passenger.

The fact that Mercedes says that auto park will be L4, they are saying that auto park will not hit anything. They are promising that their auto park can handle anything completely on its own with no driver supervision.

I think one thing that everyone can agree on is no system will ever be entirely perfect, the benchmark that I always think of for levels of autonomous vehicles is whether or not it's better than an good driver at something. There will clearly need to be a test that manufacturers will have to put there car through, probably countless times, before it is approved in any country for even level 3 driving. If they design that test for traffic jams or parking, I would put my money on Tesla doing just as well, or better, than Mercedes.

To say that Mercedes is ahead because they are advertising that they will have L3 for traffic jams while Tesla is not advertising that is misleading in my opinion. I wouldn't think Tesla is behind unless that a system from another manufacturer was on the road, doing something that a Tesla has failed to do.

I heard the same thing about Audi too and had these same discussions. Audi is going to have level 3, Audi is taking the lead on self driving, Audi this and Audi that. The last update I had about that was Audi gives up. I'm not saying that Mercedes will give up, they are a lot more conservative about their promises than Audi was and I think they will be ready for L3 in traffic jams, all I'm saying is I think Tesla will be there too.

 

[diplomat33]

So we are trusting a system that isnt released over a system that averages less than 1 accident every 4,000,000 miles when engaged? I would gladly allow a tesla to drive me through a traffic jam, I actively keep up to date on Tesla autopilot incidents and I dont see one where a Tesla hits someone while driving in that kind on scenario.

If it were safe enough to drive you through a traffic jam without needing your supervision, then Tesla should make it L3. The fact that AP is still L2 is because Tesla does not consider it safe enough to remove driver supervision. AP might be statistically very safe but it is not yet safe enough to remove driver supervision.

 

[diplomat33]

This passage from the article is interesting:

"To give the S-Class the ability to drive itself, at least for most of the time, the sedan comes with a few extras over the standard suite of sensors. There's LiDAR, a few external microphones, and an extra rear camera in the rear window. The external microphones are used to identify emergency vehicles." 2021 Mercedes-Benz S-Class Comes With Built-In Level 3 Autonomy - FutureCar.com - via @FutureCar_Media

So for those of you wondering when lidar will appear on consumer cars, here is one example. The 2021 S-class will have a front lidar and external microphones to help achieve L3 and also detect emergency vehicles by their sounds. So lidar is indeed coming next year to consumer cars. And it will allow the cars to have more reliable self-driving.

 

[Cybermoose]

If it were safe enough to drive you through a traffic jam without needing your supervision, then Tesla should make it L3. The fact that AP is still L2 is because Tesla does not consider it safe enough to remove driver supervision. AP might be statistically very safe but it is not yet safe enough to remove driver supervision.

I would rather still wait until there is a test available for Tesla to take before assuming that Tesla can't do something. Tesla has already said that their cars can make turns at intersections, but it doesn't. Tesla collects far more data than any other company when it comes to driverless technology and they have done a fantastic job at making these features safe before releasing updates.

As for L3, it's possible that regulations are holding them back. L3 has to be legal before it's released so every driver in a traffic jam with this system doesn't recieve a fine. It will be impressive for any company to avoid countless traffic stops for their customers if there are only a select number of cars that have the ability with no way for a police officer to know that before pulling you over and checking your software. They might need a whole new sticker on your plate that's regulated before it's legal.

Another thing to think about is whether or not this will be allowed. I don't see any assurance that this will be legal as soon as Mercedes releases their new car. I don't see a difference between Tesla and Mercedes for L3 if L3 isn't allowed to be implemented on public roads.

 

[Cybermoose]

To give two examples: the Audi A8 that was supposed to be the first L3 car had a front facing LIDAR, which would allow it to reliably detect stationary objects in the lane. So far Tesla can't do that. Another example is the use of HD maps, which would take out a lot of the guesswork e.g. where to go when the lane is splitting. Another thing that Tesla currently can't reliably do.
There may be a reason for that. Other car makers are far less willing to take the risk of releasing immature and potentially unsafe features to customers than Tesla is. That doesn't necessarily mean that they are behind.

Audi was supposed to and gave up, clearly it was more complicated that they had assumed it would be even with the use of LIDAR. Elon once stated that LIDAR was a crutch and that anyone who relied on it will be doomed and eventually give it up. There was a lot of skepticism of what he said and I won't say whether or not he was right as I am not an expert. However the people who are experts are unable to completely agree whether he is right or wrong either. I will just take the information that is in front of me which shows that Tesla is leading the charge towards FSD and every other company that has claimed something similar still is behind Tesla.

Also Tesla isn't releasing immature and unsafe features. Even with all the accidents that have happened, Tesla's autopilot has incidents at a rate of slightly more than 10% that of a human when compared to total miles driven. I would feel safer driving next to a Tesla than another car.

 

[Eno Deb]

Audi was supposed to and gave up, clearly it was more complicated that they had assumed it would be even with the use of LIDAR.

The system is functional and has been publicly demonstrated. As mentioned in the article in the first post, the lack of regulations for L3 is what kept Audi from delivering it to customers so far.

I will just take the information that is in front of me which shows that Tesla is leading the charge towards FSD and every other company that has claimed something similar still is behind Tesla.

That is demonstrably false, since Tesla has no Full Self Driving today (that deserves that name), while some other companies have L4 systems. If you define "leading the charge" as delivering more L2 assistance systems to customers, then you have an argument. The problem is that many of them are half-baked, and the system as a whole is far away from L4/L5.

Also Tesla isn't releasing immature and unsafe features.

You can't be serious.

Even with all the accidents that have happened, Tesla's autopilot has incidents at a rate of slightly more than 10% that of a human when compared to total miles driven.

The autopilot statistics are skewed, since autopilot is primarily used for highway driving, which has a lower accident rate to begin with.

 

[powertoold]

Tesla's autopilot has incidents at a rate of slightly more than 10% that of a human when compared to total miles driven. I would feel safer driving next to a Tesla than another car.

I agree with you that AP would definitely be a better "level 3" than what's been described in Mercedes' Drive Pilot brochure (when in a traffic jam situation, just use an "autopilot buddy" type device and you're likely at a better "level 3" than the Mercedes Drive Pilot). Otherwise, I disagree about AP being that safe. I don't trust AP to drive safely in pretty much any situation, except for moderate / high traffic situations where it's following a car.

 

[Cybermoose]

The system is functional and has been publicly demonstrated. As mentioned in the article in the first post, the lack of regulations for L3 is what kept Audi from delivering it to customers so far.
That is demonstrably false, since Tesla has no Full Self Driving today (that deserves that name), while some other companies have L4 systems. If you define "leading the charge" as delivering more L2 assistance systems to customers, then you have an argument. The problem is that many of them are half-baked, and the system as a whole is far away from L4/L5.
You can't be serious.
The autopilot statistics are skewed, since autopilot is primarily used for highway driving, which has a lower accident rate to begin with.

Tesla has also demonstrated their systems. The difference is Audi will never have that system showed with millions upon millions of miles driven. So if you want to say that Audi preformed better with their limited miles, in situations that was being publically viewed, with a system that was never released to consumers. Sure. You could also just watch the FSD video by Tesla years ago which is similar in the fact that it has not been released to the public fully yet and I am far more impressed by the Tesla video.

What companies have true L4 systems? in a sense where the company tells you that you don't need to be in a vehicle, it's fine, the car is fully designed to operate without you even watching to supervise it. Doesn't even need to be on roads, even parking will do. I would even be surprised if Mercedes beat Tesla to L4 parking. Even if Mercedes says you don't have to be in the vehicle, if they say that you have to monitor the vehicle and you have the power with the app to stop it if it is going to hit another car; that's not a L4 system because you are supervising and still have control.

Also I can be 100% serious. Tesla has millions of miles on Autopilot, yet people focus on deaths. 147 people have died to Tesla vehicles, 12 of those were claimed to be on autopilot, 5 were confirmed by Tesla that autopilot was engaged. 5 deaths as a result of Tesla software, while that is horrible that 5 people died and autopilot was engaged, drivers are still responsible to be paying attention. I'm not going to say that the system was to blame when the system isn't supposed to be trusted yet in those situations.

I'll agree that the statistics are skewed, but not anywhere near as skewed as other systems will be. I will agree that the primary miles driven by autopilot are on highways, I also know that the primary miles driven as a collective population are highways. Tesla is the system that isn't just for highways, you can use it on city roads, country roads, and it can go through intersections. I will say that Tesla has yet to preform the hardest manuever that results in the most accidents which is the left hand turn and it will be interesting to see how well Tesla handles it. If it is anything like how Tesla has handled all of the driving it has done so far, owners will be pleasantly surprised.

 

[boonedocks]

I think the clock is ticking for Tesla to deliver L3+ because other car companies are not sitting on their laurels. As we see with Mercedes and others, it is only a matter of time before other car companies deliver L3 on consumer cars.

IF Tesla is even close to offering L3 they are doing a huge disservice to FSD owners not releasing it. I would guess a LOT of people are in my shoes and have a long daily commute MOSTLY expressway. Offering L3 would be HUGE welcome to those of us that own FSD and have long straight commutes. Heck I have 30+ miles of such straight expressway in the limited access lane that I have to constantly torque the steering wheel to avoid the "NAG". So annoying

 

[DanCar]

IF Tesla is even close to offering L3 they are doing a huge disservice to FSD owners not releasing it. ...

How do you define close?