Luton Airport Car Park 2 Fire

[Jason71]

Is there really any science to the argument that EVs burn more dangerously than Diesel/Petrol ? From what I've read EV fires are no difference to initially extinguish than any other, they just have a tendency to relight is the battery isn't kept cool for a good while.

We seem to have incorrectly decided that EV fires are more dangerous. Given how many cars were burning it's no surprise that Firefighters didn't go in there.

I have read that petrol car fires top out at around 1000 degrees but EV fires can be over 2500 degrees C. If correct ( and it must be cos the internet said so) then that could be more likely to spread and do structural damage maybe? Steel loses much of its strength at 1000 degrees but it litterally melts well below 2500.
Not saying it made any difference at all in this instance. Multi-storey car parks were burning down before EV's were a thing.

 

[GeorgeSymonds]

EVs don't burn more ferociously. Ferocity meaning the biggest amount of energy released in the shortest time. Petrol and diesel cars burn with much greater ferocity i.e. they release more energy and over a shorter time. EVs can increase the challenge of extinguishing the fire but that's because they burn for longer, and due to their chemistry can supply their own oxygen to maintain the burning.

I don’t know, it’s why I said “if..”

I would however suspect the fire brigade have a better idea than anyone on here, whichever way it is, after all, their lives might depend on it. I can only think of electric bike batteries exploding in people hallways, but then Molotov cocktails still tend to be petrol in a bottle and not throwing a few batteries. Diesel ignites differently to petrol as well.

 

[Adopado]

I don’t know, it’s why I said “if..”

I would however suspect the fire brigade have a better idea than anyone on here, whichever way it is, after all, their lives might depend on it. I can only think of electric bike batteries exploding in people hallways, but then Molotov cocktails still tend to be petrol in a bottle and not throwing a few batteries. Diesel ignites differently to petrol as well.

Yes, I'm just quoting energy expenditure ... fire services will indeed understand the practicalities! (1 litre of petrol is about 9kWh of energy so a tank of 50 litres is 450kWh ... 10kWh per litre of diesel so 500kWh .... I don't know what the average amount most vehicles will have in their tanks before catching fire but that's quite a lot of energy compared to an EV! Of course there's lot's of flammable stuff in vehicles beyond the fuel or battery.

 

[fholbert]

car park had no sprinkler system installed as reported by BBC. Seems pretty odd, as that is a pretty new carpark IIRC

Kind of surprised by the lack of fire sprinklers. SoCal has had sprinklers in new parking structures since the mid ‘80’s. I believe older parking structures were retrofitted too.

Fighting a fire in a parking structure must be h3ll on earth. Trucks don’t fit, no walls to contain the fire, low ceilings hold the smoke and heat in, every ICE and EV is a bomb waiting to go off.

 

[Jason71]

Yes, I'm just quoting energy expenditure ... fire services will indeed understand the practicalities! (1 litre of petrol is about 9kWh of energy so a tank of 50 litres is 450kWh ... 10kWh per litre of diesel so 500kWh .... I don't know what the average amount most vehicles will have in their tanks before catching fire but that's quite a lot of energy compared to an EV! Of course there's lot's of flammable stuff in vehicles beyond the fuel or battery.

That may be the energy density of liquid fuel but only if you burn it completely and I am not sure a vehicle fire is the most efficient way to extract that energy.

Also 75kwh ( for example) is the amount of energy that can be released from my battery by discharging it. What we are talking about here is how much energy is released from a battery when burning it. that is not really the same thing. Even in a discharged state there is probably a lot of fuel contained in battery if you set light to it

 

[Adopado]

That may be the energy density of liquid fuel but only if you burn it completely and I am not sure a vehicle fire is the most efficient way to extract that energy.

Also 75kwh ( for example) is the amount of energy that can be released from my battery by discharging it. What we are talking about here is how much energy is released from a battery when burning it. that is not really the same thing. Even in a discharged state there is probably a lot of fuel contained in battery if you set light to it

Good points! (Mind you the burnt out vehicles I've seen certainly looked like they had comprehensively released all the potential chemical energy contained within!)

 

[GeorgeSymonds]

The gov article I posted earlier talk about fire fighting differences. The main ones seem to be EVs require over twice the water and can take up to 10x the time to put out, they also have a tendency to reignite. Fire fighters also require extra PPE because of the gases given off.

 

[yessuz]

It’s the same pile of crap as this Via Euronews: Man 'kidnapped' by his runaway EV had to have police ram his car off the road Man 'kidnapped' by his runaway EV rammed off the road by police

He wasn’t “kidnapped” the brakes on his car failed. Make, model and powertrain were irrelevant but yet again the media can spread whatever lies they want to make headlines.

Brian Morrison, 53, says his new posh motor started driving itself

it's MG... Posh and MG... jesus Christ.

 

[Andrew*Debbie]

I would however suspect the fire brigade have a better idea than anyone on here, whichever way it is,

"The fire service can confirm the initial vehicle involved in the fire was a diesel car. "

Details in the link.

Major incident declared at Luton Airport | Bedfordshire Fire and Rescue Service

Bedfordshire Fire and Rescue Service received calls to a fire involving a car on level three of the multi-storey car park at London Luton Airport at 20:47.

www.bedsfire.gov.uk

 

[Adopado]

The gov article I posted earlier talk about fire fighting differences. The main ones seem to be EVs require over twice the water and can take up to 10x the time to put out, they also have a tendency to reignite. Fire fighters also require extra PPE because of the gases given off.

Yes, the problem being that the chemical reactions provide oxygen to keep the burn going. (Fire fighters need full PPE for all vehicle fires because of all the toxic fumes from burning plastics.)

 

[Sparkeur]

"The fire service can confirm the initial vehicle involved in the fire was a diesel car. "

Details in the link.

Major incident declared at Luton Airport | Bedfordshire Fire and Rescue Service

Bedfordshire Fire and Rescue Service received calls to a fire involving a car on level three of the multi-storey car park at London Luton Airport at 20:47.

www.bedsfire.gov.uk

I guarantee...in fact I will put money on it, that before the day is through, the Luddites will be saying that the fire service are putting forward government propaganda and it was in fact an EV that started the fire...OR...there were EV's in the car park that 'made it worse'.

 

[kelvin 660]

 

[Jason71]

Good points! (Mind you the burnt out vehicles I've seen certainly looked like they had comprehensively released all the potential chemical energy contained within!)

Released yes. Burned not all of it. See all that black smoke? That is mainly un burned hydro carbons. For complete combustion you need plenty of oxygen. It is highly un likely there would be enough oxygen at the centre of the fire to completely burn the fuel so it burns partly and the remainder is vapourised and leaves the scene.

 

[ACarneiro]

Released yes. Burned not all of it. See all that black smoke? That is mainly un burned hydro carbons. For complete combustion you need plenty of oxygen. It is highly un likely there would be enough oxygen at the centre of the fire to completely burn the fuel so it burns partly and the remainder is vapourised and leaves the scene.

So EVs burn cleaner, eh?
Score another point for their green credentials…

 

[PITA]

I hope they do ban all EV's from Multi-storey car parks, Ferry's and tunnels.

Then when the car fires still carry on raging, they'll realise its because people are not servicing them enough, and the UK national fire service stats were real.

300 Electric Car Fires in the last 5 years

300 Petrol/Diesel Car Fires EVERY DAY

In the meantime I'm totally in favour of keeping our EV's SAFE.

 

[GeorgeSymonds]

Stuff

I’ve just realised you have a slightly unfortunate profile picture given the topic

 

[WannabeOwner]

It is a fact that burning EV's are a real problem to put out

I was going to mention a recent YouTube from Bjorn but @Burley provided a link:

Jøni equipment for putting out fires in EVs

If you haven't seen it the YouTube shows a device which looks like a pogo-stick, connects to the fire engine's hose, and has a tip with a carbon (I think, non-ferrous from memory) drill bit. You drill it straight through the body / casing into the battery, then flood the battery with water. Seems like a good idea to me.

 

[MrBadger]

You drill it straight through the body / casing into the battery, then flood the battery with water. Seems like a good idea to me.

I’m sure it’s been tested and great idea if it works, but I wouldn’t have thought there were many voids in a Tesla battery to take a significant amount of water.

 

[Pandinium]

Insurance companies probably already tripling prices because somebody on the internet said the fire was an EV lol…

 

[Wattsisname]

Insurance companies probably already tripling prices because somebody on the internet said the fire was an EV lol…

Since mid after noon, the BBC has confirmed the Fire Service statement that the fire started in a diesel vehicle.

Why is there this visceral dislike and need to vilify EVs?
I'd like to blame it on the significant proportion of morons that comprise the population of just about every developed country but, I hear this nonsense sprouted by people who, one would think, should know better....
...then again, look at our politicians.

Of course the mire of falsehoods and lunatic beliefs into which the world is slipping, is not confined to comments about EVs..... if only it was.