M3 MR vs Chevy Bolt (energy consumption)

[StealthP3D]

And I don't lose any sleep over driving my 17mpg urban assault vehicle because individual actions make virtually no difference to the global environment! However if you add it all up standby power is about 5% of US electricity usage.

The difference is the 17 MPG vehicle is incredibly inefficient compared to an EV and you can't do anything about the small amount of EV vampire drain but you certainly don't need a 17 MPG urban assault vehicle as your daily driver!

But people are gonna do what they're gonna do so I'm not going to try to change your mind. I just hope you aren't one of those hotheads who "rolls coal" just for the "fun" of it.

 

[ℬête Noire]

It does bother me that people are getting way less vampire drain than me! Should it not?
That's why I chose to believe that their testing methodology is flawed.

Exactly. Be better than that total bullsugar.

Unless they share their secrets with me

Already have. Plenty of posts here working on the list of likely triggers for higher* vampire drain. Unfortunately it is, like a lot of things with Tesla cars, opaque because of how complex the product's behavior is capable of being along with being a moving target due to OTA.

* Higher in relative terms of still low absolute number. Somewhere below $1 up to around $1.50/week, depending on where you live and your utilities situation (being in SD you're probably towards the top end). $6/month is in the vicinity of a rounding error for vehicle cost.

 

[Daniel in SD]

The difference is the 17 MPG vehicle is incredibly inefficient compared to an EV and you can't do anything about the small amount of EV vampire drain but you certainly don't need a 17 MPG urban assault vehicle as your daily driver!

But people are gonna do what they're gonna do so I'm not going to try to change your mind. I just hope you aren't one of those hotheads who "rolls coal" just for the "fun" of it.

I drive the SUV when the situation calls for it (offroad, towing, moving large objects, etc.). The Model 3 is a way better daily driver, that's why I got one. I don't believe in wasting energy or adding polution to the air for no good reason.

Already have. Plenty of posts here working on the list of likely triggers for higher vampire drain.

I don't have any third party apps and I live in the most moderate climate in the country so I'm not sure what else I can do.

Anyway I feel like we've explained to OP why the Model 3 efficiency is lower than the Bolt in his use case (which I would argue is a normal use case but opinions seem to differ around here).

 

[ℬête Noire]

I don't have any third party apps and I live in the most moderate climate in the country so I'm not sure what else I can do.

*sigh*

 

[SageBrush]

Not quite. What I care about are both range and driving efficiency.

It can certainly be important. I usually charge the car when it gets down to around 100 miles. Yesterday was such a time, and for the first time since the Tesla arrived in June I forgot to charge. And just because the world loves irony, I''ll mention that I was headed to the capital today to engage in some Tesla politics.,

The Tesla efficiency saved me. I was able to reach the Supercharger with a couple percent spare, leave within 10 minutes, and be none the worse for wear.

Model 3 trip efficiency is brilliant.

 

[StealthP3D]

The Tesla efficiency saved me. I was able to reach the Supercharger with a couple percent spare, leave within 10 minutes, and be none the worse for wear.

Model 3 trip efficiency is brilliant.

I'm constantly amazed at the efficiency of the Model 3 vs. other EV's (and especially against other gas vehicles). It's one of the Model 3's well known strong points. But there seems to be a small but vocal crowd (not all who even own a Model 3 or any Tesla for that matter) who regularly try to create the impression that the very things that the Model 3 excel at are it's weak points. As the owner of two Model 3's I think I'm familiar with the cars strengths and weaknesses. And I can assure you efficiency is not one of the Model 3's weak points.

I'm not sure what these peoples motives are but their tactics can only be effective on those who are not familiar with the car.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

From that last comment (which may not have been directed at me) I kind of feel like you think my motive is to denigrate Tesla, and that's a little upsetting. They already have the best handling & highest performance EV on the road, I just want them to have the best efficiency too, and to eliminate annoyances. I think everyone knows Tesla has some big problems to deal with (not just vampire drain), and the best way to deal with these things is to accept and understand them, identify a solution, and fix them. That's just life; a continual series of problems. These things WILL matter in a competitive market...whenever that comes. I'm not holding my breath on competitors just yet.

Personally, I don't think the vampire drain in my two Model 3's is very significant either, it's less than my cable box/tv (when they're off which is most of the time).

For me, it's not the cost of the vampire drain that is a concern; I have free charging at work, I have some solar at home, and I have FUSC. For the next couple years, I get $500 back or whatever from SDG&E each year for each EV I own (which is now a total of 3). It's more the idea that it is destructive to the vehicle and the environment, for no clear benefit that has been explained to me (I'd love to hear from a Tesla engineer).

I like to hang onto my cars for a while. I had my STi for 14 years and did all of my own basic scheduled maintenance, plus a couple of minor unscheduled failures. So, I want a car where everything is set up to last as long as possible.

What I understand about vampire drain (I've said this before):
1) It wears out the contactors. (I believe this requires the HV battery to be dropped out, to replace them?)
2) It wears out the 12V battery to the best of our knowledge.
3) It adds extra wear to the HV battery.

So, I don't think vampire drain is HELPING me with reliability.

More to the point of this thread, let's talk about driving efficiency.

Here is my most recent result.
Special notes:
1) I have the Tesla Stats app. I will disable it because I had a vampire incident yesterday. Nothing to implicate the Stats app, really, but just to make it as Tesla intended, it makes sense to disable it for further discussions here.
2) The following data includes 500 feet of elevation gain. So we need to subtract 800kWh from the usage. (PE = 4250lbs*9.81m/s^2*500ft)
3) Halfway through this period I turned off the data reporting & cabin overheat protection.
4) I spent no time sitting in the car and not driving. I just drove.
5) I used ZERO HVAC. No fan. Just off. I used zero pre-heating. I used seat heater and rear defrost briefly.
6) It's been about 55-70 degrees in San Diego.
7) Obviously accelerated briskly on several occasions. I was aggressive and even braked a couple times (worse than my typical driving just because I caught a few lights at the worst time).
8) Version 50.6
9) I did not check the car status remotely.

I charged car to 254 miles on Monday evening at work (moved it to the chargers a few hours after I got to work), then left it at work, rode home on my bicycle, rode back to work this morning. Lost about 12.5 miles overnight (that's a record for me). All the doors were closed & latched properly. I honestly have no idea what happened - the LTE signal is weak in the garage at work. It had no WiFi connection. Maybe it was the Stats app. 50.6 is quite new; could be related. (It has been refusing to open the door for me more, with that update. So maybe higher vampire, reduced functionality. Who knows.)

I completed driving today having 210 rated miles remaining, with 16.8 miles of real driving.

Just summarizing calculations:

Actual battery-to-wheel efficiency:
(254 rated mi - 210 rated mi) * 242Wh/ rated mi / (16.8mi) = 634Wh/mi (634Wh/mi - 800Wh/(16.8mi) = ~586Wh/mi (elevation corrected))
Indicated battery-to-wheel efficiency:
350Wh/mi (elevation corrected would be ~302Wh/mi) (This is more or less a normal metered efficiency for me - slightly worse than normal, as mentioned. I can probably get to 270-280Wh/mi if I'm careful.)
Wall-to-wheel efficiency (using prior Chargepoint results, see earlier posts):
586Wh/mi / 0.86 = 681Wh/mi (MPGe 49.5) (Right now, I expect it will take about 12.35kWh to charge back up to 254mi - I'll confirm that tomorrow - that's actually the final necessary piece of data here...real numbers will likely be higher because I have to drive back to work still...plus vampire tonight).

Picture evidence below, lest you think I am making it up!

Obviously, on average I do a bit better than this. That vampire was an outlier. Again, YES I WILL DISABLE THE STATS APP. Just to see if I can get to the promised land. Is there anything else I need to do? Any magic menu items to disable? I'm not going to disable mobile access - I assumes that disables the phone key function (could be wrong)?

 

[chronopc]

From that last comment (which may not have been directed at me) I kind of feel like you think my motive is to denigrate Tesla, and that's a little upsetting. They already have the best handling & highest performance EV on the road, I just want them to have the best efficiency too, and to eliminate annoyances. I think everyone knows Tesla has some big problems to deal with (not just vampire drain), and the best way to deal with these things is to accept and understand them, identify a solution, and fix them. That's just life; a continual series of problems. These things WILL matter in a competitive market...whenever that comes. I'm not holding my breath on competitors just yet.



For me, it's not the cost of the vampire drain that is a concern; I have free charging at work, I have some solar at home, and I have FUSC. For the next couple years, I get $500 back or whatever from SDG&E each year for each EV I own (which is now a total of 3). It's more the idea that it is destructive to the vehicle and the environment, for no clear benefit that has been explained to me (I'd love to hear from a Tesla engineer).

I like to hang onto my cars for a while. I had my STi for 14 years and did all of my own basic scheduled maintenance, plus a couple of minor unscheduled failures. So, I want a car where everything is set up to last as long as possible.

What I understand about vampire drain (I've said this before):
1) It wears out the contactors. (I believe this requires the HV battery to be dropped out, to replace them?)
2) It wears out the 12V battery to the best of our knowledge.
3) It adds extra wear to the HV battery.

So, I don't think vampire drain is HELPING me with reliability.

More to the point of this thread, let's talk about driving efficiency.

Here is my most recent result.
Special notes:
1) I have the Tesla Stats app. I will disable it because I had a vampire incident yesterday. Nothing to implicate the Stats app, really, but just to make it as Tesla intended, it makes sense to disable it for further discussions here.
2) The following data includes 500 feet of elevation gain. So we need to subtract 800kWh from the usage. (PE = 4250lbs*9.81m/s^2*500ft)
3) Halfway through this period I turned off the data reporting & cabin overheat protection.
4) I spent no time sitting in the car and not driving. I just drove.
5) I used ZERO HVAC. No fan. Just off. I used zero pre-heating. I used seat heater and rear defrost briefly.
6) It's been about 55-70 degrees in San Diego.
7) Obviously accelerated briskly on several occasions. I was aggressive and even braked a couple times (worse than my typical driving just because I caught a few lights at the worst time).
8) Version 50.6
9) I did not check the car status remotely.

I charged car to 254 miles on Monday evening at work (moved it to the chargers a few hours after I got to work), then left it at work, rode home on my bicycle, rode back to work this morning. Lost about 12.5 miles overnight (that's a record for me). All the doors were closed & latched properly. I honestly have no idea what happened - the LTE signal is weak in the garage at work. It had no WiFi connection. Maybe it was the Stats app. 50.6 is quite new; could be related. (It has been refusing to open the door for me more, with that update. So maybe higher vampire, reduced functionality. Who knows.)

I completed driving today having 210 rated miles remaining, with 16.8 miles of real driving.

Just summarizing calculations:

Actual battery-to-wheel efficiency:
(254 rated mi - 210 rated mi) * 242Wh/ rated mi / (16.8mi) = 634Wh/mi (634Wh/mi - 800Wh/(16.8mi) = ~586Wh/mi (elevation corrected))
Indicated battery-to-wheel efficiency:
350Wh/mi (elevation corrected would be ~302Wh/mi) (This is more or less a normal metered efficiency for me - slightly worse than normal, as mentioned. I can probably get to 270-280Wh/mi if I'm careful.)
Wall-to-wheel efficiency (using prior Chargepoint results, see earlier posts):
586Wh/mi / 0.86 = 681Wh/mi (MPGe 49.5) (Right now, I expect it will take about 12.35kWh to charge back up to 254mi - I'll confirm that tomorrow - that's actually the final necessary piece of data here...real numbers will likely be higher because I have to drive back to work still...plus vampire tonight).

Picture evidence below, lest you think I am making it up!

Obviously, on average I do a bit better than this. That vampire was an outlier. Again, YES I WILL DISABLE THE STATS APP. Just to see if I can get to the promised land. Is there anything else I need to do? Any magic menu items to disable? I'm not going to disable mobile access - I assumes that disables the phone key function (could be wrong)?

View attachment 373068

View attachment 373069 View attachment 373070

Love the name. Snow White.

 

[MentalNomad]

Some people love their Tesla, but they want to make it as efficient as possible. It's their thing. That's fine.

I think Tesla should offer "Hypermiler Mode" or "Energy Miser" mode as options.

Hypermiler would bias the car towards high-efficiency driving - EAP could accelerate more slowly, maybe even anticipate speed changes and use regen in advance to preserve power - the torque curve on the pedal could be adjusted so that the normal range draws less, but a deep pedal push still provides emergency power...

Energy Miser would shut down or severely limit all the incidental power draws while not driving, it could check in with the network less often, and users would know that they can't wake their car remotely to check on it from the app. The mode might even provide indicators of power draw on the screen for using optional accessories.

Some people want this. It's not for everyone - it's not for me - but some people want this and would appreciate being able to use their car the way they want to use their car. I might even use these modes on special occasions.

 

[Daniel in SD]

I'm constantly amazed at the efficiency of the Model 3 vs. other EV's (and especially against other gas vehicles). It's one of the Model 3's well known strong points. But there seems to be a small but vocal crowd (not all who even own a Model 3 or any Tesla for that matter) who regularly try to create the impression that the very things that the Model 3 excel at are it's weak points. As the owner of two Model 3's I think I'm familiar with the cars strengths and weaknesses. And I can assure you efficiency is not one of the Model 3's weak points.

I'm not sure what these peoples motives are but their tactics can only be effective on those who are not familiar with the car.

The efficiency of the Model 3 motor is amazing, the efficiency of the car not so much. OP got 228Wh/mi in his Bolt and 292Wh/mi in his Model 3. My motive is to put pressure on Tesla to improve the efficiency of their cars.

 

[StealthP3D]

The efficiency of the Model 3 motor is amazing, the efficiency of the car not so much. OP got 228Wh/mi in his Bolt and 292Wh/mi in his Model 3. My motive is to put pressure on Tesla to improve the efficiency of their cars.

Oh, no, I was talking about overall efficiency and the real world tests I've seen consistently support that the Model 3 is not only efficient but powerful and fast and has the best climate controls and creature comforts (lack of a heated steering wheel notwithstanding). I'm looking forward to long-term reports of battery longevity too. I'm guessing, based on the fact that it has actively heated/cooled cylindrical cells it will stand out there too. I'm not aware of any other EV that has that.

 

[Daniel in SD]

Oh, no, I was talking about overall efficiency and the real world tests I've seen consistently support that the Model 3 is not only efficient but powerful and fast and has the best climate controls and creature comforts (lack of a heated steering wheel notwithstanding). I'm looking forward to long-term reports of battery longevity too. I'm guessing, based on the fact that it has actively heated/cooled cylindrical cells it will stand out there too. I'm not aware of any other EV that has that.

I'm fine with energy consumption that lengthens the life of the pack. The Bolt battery pack is also liquid heated and cooled. I agree that Tesla battery longevity has been very impressive.

 

[StealthP3D]

I think everyone knows Tesla has some big problems to deal with (not just vampire drain), and the best way to deal with these things is to accept and understand them, identify a solution, and fix them. That's just life; a continual series of problems. These things WILL matter in a competitive market...whenever that comes. I'm not holding my breath on competitors just yet.

I don't think there is any serious EV competition on the immediate horizon either. And that kind of dispels the notion that the Model 3 is inferior. Sure, nothings perfect but, if you have the most competitive offering in the world, you're probably paying attention to the things that matter most and getting them right.

You mention two concerns:

1) The vampire drain is destructing your Tesla.
2) It's damaging to the environment.

I would encourage you to take a step back and realize that Tesla has a history of making long-lasting cars that hold their value above average, even when compared to ICE vehicles that tend to have a lower depreciation relative to EV's (other than Teslas). Granted, your reported vampire drain is well above what most other Model 3 owners report so maybe you should have it checked out. When I park my Model 3 outside in the cold for three days I lose 4-5 miles. But it has to be undisturbed. If I open the door the heater will come on. That's a big draw right there even if it's only for 30 seconds. The Model 3 is new to every owner, they can't help but to check their apps and open the door, sometimes multiple times per day. But I would rest easy knowing that a little vampire drain is not going to ruin your car or it's resale value.

In terms of the environment, you would have to move to a smaller car to find one with lower overall energy consumption. So I think your fears are unfounded. No EV of it's size is as efficient in typical everyday usage (including the parked hours). And compared to every other ICE car, it's not even a contest. So stop worrying about the environment - that's what the Model 3 excels at while simultaneously satisfying peoples need for comfort, performance and convenience.

Realize that modern EV's are still in their infancy and improving rapidly, literally every year. For now, the Model 3 is the best it gets (and it's very nice indeed).

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Granted, your reported vampire drain is well above what most other Model 3 owners report so maybe you should have it checked out. When I park my Model 3 outside in the cold for three days I lose 4-5 miles. But it has to be undisturbed. If I open the door the heater will come on. That's a big draw right there even if it's only for 30 seconds. The Model 3 is new to every owner, they can't help but to check their apps and open the door, sometimes multiple times per day. But I would rest easy knowing that a little vampire drain is not going to ruin your car or it's resale value.

I'll post an update here when I have a chance to recharge to the same charge level, later today. Part of the drain issue was due to battery state estimation (I regained 7 miles out of my ~12-15 lost; overnight I went from 210 miles to 217 miles). I think this may be due to 50.6 update as I've never seen that large a change before. Makes the picture look slightly better.

I keep my heater off so I don't have to worry about it turning on when I open the door.

I rarely bother checking my car state with the app.

Again, I'll give a full update with round trip wall-to-wheel efficiency data for a short trip, later today.

For battery state estimation issues, it's better to go from near a full charge to near a full discharge. But not convenient for me. I'll just keep an eye on the wall-to-wheel data (and compare it to car reported data) as that's really all that matters.

 

[StealthP3D]

Again, I'll give a full update with round trip wall-to-wheel efficiency data for a short trip, later today.
.

This is a real nail-biter, I'll be sitting on the edge of the seat waiting to see how much vampire drain you had.

Seriously, all we do is look at the consumption of our electrical service meter that only serves our carport where we park our two cars, divide by the numbers of miles driven and smile when we see how low our cost/mile is compared to gas. All the vampire drain is built into the numbers used for billing purposes and it's super cheap. For us, it's cheaper to go 4 miles in our Tesla's than 1-mile using gas. I'm actually being conservative on those numbers. And that's before you consider no oil changes, no air filters, etc. That's counting all vampire drain, all pre-heating, everything.

Next thing you will be complaining that your recycling service is stealing your aluminum cans from you without cutting you a check each week for the $0.12 worth of aluminum content!

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

This is a real nail-biter, I'll be sitting on the edge of the seat waiting to see how much vampire drain you had.

Seriously, all we do is look at the consumption of our electrical service meter that only serves our carport where we park our two cars, divide by the numbers of miles driven and smile when we see how low our cost/mile is compared to gas. All the vampire drain is built into the numbers used for billing purposes and it's super cheap. For us, it's cheaper to go 4 miles in our Tesla's than 1-mile using gas. I'm actually being conservative on those numbers. And that's before you consider no oil changes, no air filters, etc. That's counting all vampire drain, all pre-heating, everything.

Next thing you will be complaining that your recycling service is stealing your aluminum cans from you without cutting you a check each week for the $0.12 worth of aluminum content!

All I want to know is the number. That's it. Then I can speak to people accurately about what the real-world consumption is. And then I can understand better what is happening. I'm not a big picture kind of guy, sorry.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

As mentioned above, things got a bit better due to 7 miles of rated range recovery overnight...

Again, no HVAC use. Small amount of seat heater use. No remote preheating. No sitting in the car in park (other than to start driving). See above for full test details. P3D+. This is round trip data, using the same 6kW (30A @ 200V) charger. Temperatures in mid 50s to upper 60s.

Monday -> Wednesday (nearly exactly 2 days)

Starting rated miles (Monday 5:51PM): 254
Ending rated miles (Wednesday 12:29PM): 192
Recharged rated miles (Wednesday 3:15PM): 254

Calculated energy use based on rated miles used: (254-192)*242Wh/mi = 15kWh (assumes battery state estimation is correct)

Driven miles: 41.2
Reported in-car efficiency: 274Wh/mi
Total energy delivered from battery while driving (in-car indicated): 11.29kWh

"Uncounted" energy: 15kWh-11.29kWh = 3.71kWh (15.3 rated miles)

Chargepoint added energy (metered by Chargepoint): 16.47kWh
Total charging losses: 16.47kWh - 15kWh = 1.45kWh (assumes BSE is correct)
Charging efficiency: 15kWh/16.47kWh = 91% (compare to prior number I gave of 86% - I think part of this is just due to state of charge estimation - to get better accuracy for the real efficiency you'd have to do a big charge and get longer term data I think - it's probably in the range of 87%-92% - so most likely a bit worse than the Bolt, but maybe by just a couple % - possibly due to battery architecture or energy-intensive activities that take place while charging)

Wall-to-wheels efficiency: 16.47kWh/41.2mi = 400Wh/mi

Wall-to-wheels efficiency in absence of uncounted energy: (11.29kWh/0.91)/41.1mi = 301Wh/mi

Total uncounted energy: (15kWh - 11.29kWh)/0.91 = 4.07kWh (3.71+0.36)
Uncounted energy is due to vampire loss, any losses while in park, losses while charging which are not counted as delivered to the battery, and charging losses that must be assigned as due to these factors (because it takes extra energy to replace lost energy, due to charging inefficiency).

This was a particularly poor period for vampire drain, as I said (no idea why). In general I think I'd expect about half of that amount. I'll try again sometime. It would be good to get a better handle on charger efficiency. It might be better at higher voltages & currents (someone with 11.5kW Wall Connector charging should try to measure - but it really has to be for a long charge (lots of miles) to get good accuracy I think).

So for me, driving about 20 miles a day, I think I'd typically expect to see about 340-350Wh/mi wall-to-wheels efficiency (with no HVAC use and efficient driving). That's about what I would have guessed. For someone without the 20" sticky tires, AWD, 20 miles/day, I'd expect to get ~310Wh/mi. For the LR RWD people, 20 mi/day, I'd expect about ~290Wh/mi. All wall to wheels. The more you drive the lower it gets (asymptotically approaches a lower bound) because the uncounted energy gets spread out over those miles.

Hope this information is useful to those who care about such things. If you don't care, that is fine!

 

[StealthP3D]

See above for full test details. P3D+. This is round trip data, using the same 6kW (30A @ 200V) charger. Temperatures in mid 50s to upper 60s.

Monday -> Wednesday (nearly exactly 2 days)

Starting rated miles (Monday 5:51PM): 254
Ending rated miles (Wednesday 12:29PM): 192
Recharged rated miles (Wednesday 3:15PM): 254

Calculated energy use based on rated miles used: (254-192)*242Wh/mi = 15kWh (assumes battery state estimation is correct)

Driven miles: 41.2
Reported in-car efficiency: 273Wh/mi
Total energy delivered from battery while driving (in-car indicated): 11.25kWh

"Uncounted" energy: 15kWh-11.25kWh = 3.75kWh (15.5 rated miles)

Chargepoint added energy (metered by Chargepoint): 16.47kWh
Total charging losses: 16.47kWh - 15kWh = 1.45kWh (assumes BSE is correct)
Charging efficiency: 15kWh/16.47kWh = 91% (compare to prior number I gave of 86% - I think part of this is just due to state of charge estimation - to get better accuracy for the real efficiency you'd have to do a big charge and get longer term data I think - it's probably in the range of 87%-92% - so most likely a bit worse than the Bolt, but maybe by just a couple % - possibly due to battery architecture or energy-intensive activities that take place while charging)

Wall-to-wheels efficiency: 16.47kWh/41.2mi = 400Wh/mi

Wall-to-wheels efficiency in absence of uncounted energy: (11.25kWh/0.91)/41.1mi = 300Wh/mi

Total uncounted energy: (15kWh - 11.25kWh)/0.91 = 4.12kWh (3.75+0.37)
Uncounted energy is due to vampire loss, any losses while in park, losses while charging which are not counted as delivered to the battery, and charging losses that must be assigned as due to these factors (because it takes extra energy to replace lost energy due to charging inefficiency).

This was a particularly poor period for vampire drain, as I said (no idea why). In general I think I'd expect about half of that amount. I'll try again sometime. It would be good to get a better handle on charger efficiency. It might be better at higher voltages & currents (someone with 11.5kW Wall Connector charging should try to measure - but it really has to be for a long charge (lots of miles) to get good accuracy I think).

Too much information! Sorry, I couldn't get through it.

Would it be fair to summarize it as your model 3 is way cheaper to drive than a typical gas car?

I thought so.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Too much information! Sorry, I couldn't get through it.

Would it be fair to summarize it as your model 3 is way cheaper to drive than a typical gas car?

I thought so.

Wow, I guess you were on the edge of your seat!

Some people like details, others don't. It's cool.

 

[Daniel in SD]

Would it be fair to summarize it as your model 3 is way cheaper to drive than a typical gas car?

Look at the thread title
At SDG&E rates I think he'd be paying more depending on the car and rate plan. Top tier rate in San Diego is $0.54/kWh. That's $0.216 per mile. My 17mpg urban assault vehicle at $3.50/gallon gas is $0.205/mile. Not really fair because it gets much worse than 17mpg in the city especially if I drove it like the Model 3. Anyway, I'm glad I have solar!