M3P- . What is it, how to order it, etc.

[aasandsas]

But that doesn't fit what is known at all.

Because what is known includes that Ps and AWDs get exactly the same drive units with exactly the same PNs

And that this "flashing a delivered AWD to a P3D- at/post delivery when the real order was a P" happened last year during intiial P3D- deliveries too doesn't fit the idea it's some "special" new parts (which again nobody has posted a different PN actually delivered on their car to support the idea of either)



And Tesla has sold upgrades (to only some people) in the past- P85D L upgrade for example if you bought within a certain date range.


Just as they've sold upgrades to "everyone" (P100D owners who took delivery without L and added it later for example).

From what I heard the newer ones have different inverter. Nobody knows for sure.

It is also possible that Tesla only makes AWD with certain P based “binned” motors and everything else is simply software controlled.

 

[StealthP3D]

From what I heard the newer ones have different inverter. Nobody knows for sure.

It is also possible that Tesla only makes AWD with certain P based “binned” motors and everything else is simply software controlled.

I suspect the difference between a P capable AWD and a non-P capable AWD is not so much the motor but the silicon. But the drive units are tested as a completed assembly so the point is rather academic.

 

[jebinc]

I suspect the difference between a P capable AWD and a non-P capable AWD is not so much the motor but the silicon. But the drive units are tested as a completed assembly so the point is rather academic.

I still think they should offer it to AWD vin numbers that are capable, even after delivery. YMMV

 

[Knightshade]

1) We are not discussing Model S P85D's or Model S P100D's here, only Model 3 AWD and Model 3 Performance.

Sorry, I took your saying " Tesla has NEVER allowed any upgrading to Performance after taking delivery." to apply to Tesla cars in general.

Where, again, they explicitly have allowed performance related upgrades after delivery.

I'm not sure why the 3 couldn't have the same thing done- especially since it's software only.

2) Part numbers are applied during manufacture, not testing. Of course, they all have the same part number.

This makes no sense.

If the testing found some parts weren't interchangable those lesser parts would get a different PN to avoid the lesser part going into a P.

That didn't happen though.

P and AWD cars got the exact same parts

3) It would only be during the testing of those drive units that they could designate them as suitable for Performance or not.

And the way everyone else in the world designates stuff like that (Intel for binning CPUs for example) is by giving them a different PN.

Since that didn't happen "all evidence" suggests they're all "good enough" to go into a P.

4) In this case, Tesla will never flash an AWD that didn't test high enough

Which there's no evidence ever, ever, ever happened. Since AWD has the same PN drive unit as every P- and if one failed in either they'd get the same replacement part.

and they will never flash an AWD to Performance after a AWD has been delivered as an AWD non-Performance because they can't do the same for all AWD owners who may request an upgrade.

Again, on the S, they did offer performance upgrades to only specific owners who bought during specific times, so even if your totally-unsupported idea that somehow the same PN is a different actual part were true- Tesla has already done THAT too in not offering an upgrade to "every" owner.

Large silicon carbide power inverters vary in performance from the manufacturer (the manufacturer specs admit this fact) even though the individual components have the same part number. It's not clear to me why you make such a big deal about the part numbers all being the same.

Because your explanation is nonsensical.


If the same PN goes on something that can't work in a P there's going to be a lot of parts failures when Ps need DUs replaced- because replacement parts are usually done by part number

If a company has 2 parts that have different capabilities and are not totally interchangeable in MFG and repair they give them different part numbers

And yet- my AWD from 2018 has drive units with the same part numbers as a P.

 

[StealthP3D]

I still think they should offer it to AWD vin numbers that are capable, even after delivery. YMMV

That's not too wise! You thought the moaning, groaning and crying was bad after the price drops! The complaining would drown out a fleet of 747's all taking off at once if only SOME AWD owners were allowed to upgrade to Performance!

 

[jebinc]

That's not too wise! You thought the moaning, groaning and crying was bad after the price drops! The complaining would drown out a fleet of 747's all taking off at once if only SOME AWD owners were allowed to upgrade to Performance!

Could be, but if they picked a cutoff date (based on when they felt the DUs were capable, the number of unhappy’s could be fairly small, while pure profit for Tesla quite high. They could also give those not qualifying something else, like supercharging credits. Just saying, if there is will, there is a way...

 

[StealthP3D]

This makes no sense.

If the testing found some parts weren't interchangable those lesser parts would get a different PN to avoid the lesser part going into a P.
That didn't happen though. P and AWD cars got the exact same parts.
And the way everyone else in the world designates stuff like that (Intel for binning CPUs for example) is by giving them a different PN.
Since that didn't happen "all evidence" suggests they're all "good enough" to go into a P.

Perhaps someday all the silicon carbide will spec out to allow every AWD to be converted to Performance. But silicon carbide power inverters in the Model 3 are rather new, leading edge tech. Currently, the power inverters have a variance in performance and Tesla only allows ones that test highest sigma to be designated Performance. After all, it's Tesla who has to cover warranty costs if these things burn up with too much current going through them. That could bankrupt Tesla.

Which there's no evidence ever, ever, ever happened. Since AWD has the same PN drive unit as every P- and if one failed in either they'd get the same replacement part.

When a service center orders a new drive unit for a Model 3, they have to specify whether it's for a Performance or an AWD. The part number is the same but only a sub-set of those have tested out to be good enough for Performance levels of electrical current. To avoid failure and excessive warranty costs, Tesla will only supply a Performance rated drive unit for a Performance car. They don't use different part numbers because they don't want some AWD's having Performance rated drive units and others having ones that are inferior. Don't get me wrong, that is exactly the case, they just don't want the customer to be able to identify which ones tested good enough for Performance. Different part numbers would greatly reduce the ability of Tesla to adjust on the fly because it would lock a Performance drive unit into ONLY being used on a Performance Model. And since most of them test good enough for Performance, they would have way too many Performance drive units. The other option would be to throw out any that didn't test good enough for performance. But why would they do that when they are perfectly good enough for AWD levels of current?

Again, on the S, they did offer performance upgrades to only specific owners who bought during specific times, so even if your totally-unsupported idea that somehow the same PN is a different actual part were true- Tesla has already done THAT too in not offering an upgrade to "every" owner.

At some production date, Tesla may source silicon carbide inverters that ALL meet Performance specs. When that happens, they might allow any Model 3 AWD manufactured after a certain date to upgrade to Performance. Alternatively, they could decide the way they handled Model S upgrades was a mistake (in hindsight). It's up to Tesla to decide how to handle power upgrades within each model/production batch differences, etc. They have to work within customer expectations and technology/manufacturing limitations while ensuring they don't create warrnaty failures.

If the same PN goes on something that can't work in a P there's going to be a lot of parts failures when Ps need DUs replaced- because replacement parts are usually done by part number

If a company has 2 parts that have different capabilities and are not totally interchangeable in MFG and repair they give them different part numbers

And yet- my AWD from 2018 has drive units with the same part numbers as a P.

You keep saying the same thing and yet neglecting to claim that Tesla will ship drive units without knowing whether it's for AWD or Performance. My contention is they will not. The reason they don't give them different part numbers after testing has already been explained so you are not saying anything new. But, there is another reason why Tesla might not want to give the drive units different part numbers after testing:

Because Tesla prides itself on it's nimbleness, they want to be able to adjust on the fly. They know that as time goes on they will get more reliability/failure data and they want the flexibility to change what the exact cutoff is for Performance levels of power. By recording the testing results for each drive unit (rather than assigning a new part number at the time of testing) they retain the ability to adjust the cutoff on the fly (that could apply to drive units already manufactured. This would be useful if some drive units start failing or if Tesla wants to offer even faster variants in the future using drivetrains already manufactured and tested. We know from watching that Tesla does everything in its control to retain as much nimbleness and flexibility as possible. Yet by claiming all parts with the same part number must test the same, you are essentially saying "Tesla must do everything exactly how traditional automakers do things".

We will just have to disagree on this because you obviously believe the drive units have not been tested and the results recorded next to their serial number in order to reduce warranty costs and offer the highest levels of performance while retaining a very low failure rate. Tesla DOES do things differently and it's for good reasons. You also don't seem to recognize that with the current state of the art of silicon carbide power transistors, the specs do have quite a variance. Tesla is simply adapting to this reality.

 

[Knightshade]

Perhaps someday all the silicon carbide will spec out to allow every AWD to be converted to Performance. But silicon carbide power inverters in the Model 3 are rather new, leading edge tech. Currently, the power inverters have a variance in performance and Tesla only allows ones that test highest sigma to be designated Performance.

In court this is called assuming facts not in evidence.

For one, SIC aren't all that "new" and for another apart from Elons tweet made before any production Ps were actually built, there remains 0 evidence ANY AWD got any part that can't be flashed to a P (and considerable evidence the other way)

When a service center orders a new drive unit for a Model 3, they have to specify whether it's for a Performance or an AWD.

Really?

So they don't use part numbers to order parts? How, specifically, do they do this?

Why do part numbers exist then?

Again this "same PN but not the same part" story holds no water- there's no reason at all for any company to do that and lots of reasons not to.

The part number is the same but only a sub-set of those have tested out to be good enough for Performance levels of electrical current. To avoid failure and excessive warranty costs, Tesla will only supply a Performance rated drive unit for a Performance car.

And your evidence of this, despite the fact it'd be the same PN the SC orders, is.... ?


Nothing, far as I can tell. You're making up a story that requires a lot of nonsensical decisions on the part of Tesla, in exchange for 0 actual benefit compared to how PNs actually work everywhere else in the world.

They don't use different part numbers because they don't want some AWD's having Performance rated drive units and others having ones that are inferior.

....what?

That makes even less sense since using different PNs would be exactly the best way to insure that.

Don't get me wrong, that is exactly the case, they just don't want the customer to be able to identify which ones tested good enough for Performance.

So you're saying they used a manufacturing and supply chain system there's no evidence exists but is nonsensical, confusing, costs them extra time and work at every step, increases the risk of the wrong replacement part going into a car...


All so that a customer can't "check by PN" which drive unit they got to "know" they got a lesser DU than a P?

Despite your original premise being Elon told them the P got a greater DU so they should already know that?

AND they did this all before there even WAS a public parts catalog any customer could've checked?


Again this story makes 0 sense at any part and is entirely unsupported by any known facts.

Different part numbers would greatly reduce the ability of Tesla to adjust on the fly because it would lock a Performance drive unit into ONLY being used on a Performance Model.

No, it wouldn't.

MFG systems can easily accomidate equivalent/replacement parts... so it's trivial to tell the system "For a P you must use PN A.... for an AWD you can use PN A or B"

That's massively easier and simpler than using the same PN for 2 different parts that are not 100% swappable into either car.

So again your explanation fails ocams razor- it adds a lot of work and complexity for no benefit.

At some production date, Tesla may source silicon carbide inverters that ALL meet Performance specs. When that happens, they might allow any Model 3 AWD manufactured after a certain date to upgrade to Performance.

That's- on or before Day 1 of original AWD production as far as the little actual evidence we have.

You keep saying the same thing and yet neglecting to claim that Tesla will ship drive units without knowing whether it's for AWD or Performance. My contention is they will not.

Again without any evidence of that.

Further- SCs are supposedly keeping parts in stock now- when the mechanic goes to the shelf where they keep DUs he's going to pull a replacement by... PN.

Otherwise why even have PNs?

The reason they don't give them different part numbers after testing has already been explained

Not in a way that actually makes any sense or appears to understand anything about supply chain or manufacturing.

But, there is another reason why Tesla might not want to give the drive units different part numbers after testing:

Because Tesla prides itself on it's nimbleness, they want to be able to adjust on the fly. They know that as time goes on they will get more reliability/failure data and they want the flexibility to change what the exact cutoff is for Performance levels of power. By recording the testing results for each drive unit (rather than assigning a new part number at the time of testing) they retain the ability to adjust the cutoff on the fly (that could apply to drive units already manufactured.

Again this makes 0 sense.

They could already do that using different PNs- In fact we know they do exactly that when the spec on a part changes.

The RWD LR has 3 different PNs for a suspension part because every time they rev it it gets a different PN.

If a motor gets a rev where its specs or use change they can....do the same thing they do for all other parts and rev the PN.

We know from watching that Tesla does everything in its control to retain as much nimbleness and flexibility as possible.

Which is much easier to do if you know, by PN, the difference between 2 things.

Hence why they rev PNs any time a spec changes.

Hence why the same PN thing makes it far more likely they're the same actual part performance and all.

Yet by claiming all parts with the same part number must test the same, you are essentially saying "Tesla must do everything exactly how traditional automakers do things".

No, I'm saying you still haven't given a single reason they wouldn't do this the same way every manufacturing company in every industry- including high tech ones like Intel do.

When Intel tests 2 of the "same" chips off the line- and one tests lower than the other- they give the lower spec part a different part number because doing otherwise provides no benefit and a lot of downside down the line in MFG and supply chain/repair work.

 

[jebinc]

Another Lovers quarrel....

 

[p-f-g]

I thought it was only in the US but a few of these are available now in the Swiss store.

 

[MagnusMako]

@StealthP3D - "When a service center orders a new drive unit for a Model 3, they have to specify whether it's for a Performance or an AWD. The part number is the same but only a sub-set of those have tested out to be good enough for Performance levels of electrical current."

This is 100% your theoretical assumption unless you can prove otherwise. It would also be a highly inefficient and risky way to handle parts. You'd be relying on humans to always pick the right motor every time to send out and if they sent an unqualified motor for a P car (assuming that there's even that much variance) you would have some major risk due to human error. At my company, all part's which need replacement have a specific sku and sub sku's for delineation. If a part changes, it has a revision number or generally a new sku. If there is a "sub-set' of motors which are tested "good enough" for Performance then those would have their own part number. Proper inventory management demands it. We have a warehouse with hundreds of parts, the only way you keep track of things properly with any kind of differentiation is with part numbers. Having the same part number for two different DU's by any kind of testing would be idiotic.

 

[StealthP3D]

Below I have skipped over the portions that are just un-restrained rants and address only the real points you made that have not been explained numerous times.

In court this is called assuming facts not in evidence.

The evidence is straight from the CEO who said they would be burn testing every drive unit and only the best ones would be used in Performance models. You can choose to disbelieve him but I haven't seen a shred of evidence it's not true.

All so that a customer can't "check by PN" which drive unit they got to "know" they got a lesser DU than a P? Despite your original premise being Elon told them the P got a greater DU so they should already know that?

I think you are missing the relevant point that there are more drive units that meet the Performance standard than demand for that model. So some Performance capable drive units are sold as AWD. This means some AWD get a "P" drive unit for the same price as one that doesn't test good enough to safely handle the extra current.

AND they did this all before there even WAS a public parts catalog any customer could've checked?

Irrelevant. They knew there would be a public parts catalog so completely meaningless. Plus, the parts had already been manufactured, the testing is the last step before shipping them to production and the part numbers had already been stamped on the parts during original production.

That's massively easier and simpler than using the same PN for 2 different parts that are not 100% swappable into either car.
So again your explanation fails ocams razor- it adds a lot of work and complexity for no benefit.

I didn't say they are not physically swappable into either car, I said they kept track of the highest sigma drive units and reserved those for the P models. The benefit is reduced warranty expense.

No, I'm saying you still haven't given a single reason they wouldn't do this the same way every manufacturing company in every industry- including high tech ones like Intel do.

They want the flexibility to use the Performance spec drive unit in AWD Models depending upon current demand ratio between the various models. And they don't want to be sending some AWD's out there with Performance part numbers because that would be a slap in the face to those AWD purchasers who paid the same amount but got a lesser drive unit.

If they accidentally put an AWD drive unit in a Performance Model, it probably wouldn't be the end of the world but, over hundreds of thousands of products, it would cause a higher failure rate if the drive units testing with the lowest sigma went into Performance models which would be a significant warranty expense for Tesla (and result in inconveniencing more customers). The failures would probably only show up on the racetrack where repetitive high current usage occurs and heat builds up in the components but Tesla doesn't want a reputation for cars that break when you use them hard so, when pushing the limits of what the components can handle, as the Performance Model obviously does, it makes a lot of sense to put the coolest running ones in the highest performance models.

That's what they said they were doing and, lacking any evidence to the contrary, I'm going to take them at their word. You know, Occam's Razor...

 

[StealthP3D]

@StealthP3D - "When a service center orders a new drive unit for a Model 3, they have to specify whether it's for a Performance or an AWD. The part number is the same but only a sub-set of those have tested out to be good enough for Performance levels of electrical current."

This is 100% your theoretical assumption unless you can prove otherwise. It would also be a highly inefficient and risky way to handle parts. You'd be relying on humans to always pick the right motor every time to send out and if they sent an unqualified motor for a P car (assuming that there's even that much variance) you would have some major risk due to human error. At my company, all part's which need replacement have a specific sku and sub sku's for delineation. If a part changes, it has a revision number or generally a new sku. If there is a "sub-set' of motors which are tested "good enough" for Performance then those would have their own part number. Proper inventory management demands it. We have a warehouse with hundreds of parts, the only way you keep track of things properly with any kind of differentiation is with part numbers. Having the same part number for two different DU's by any kind of testing would be idiotic.

Tesla has a parts inventory system that works on this modern thing called a "computer".

It's absolutely trivial to flag certain serial numbers.

 

[aasandsas]

One can debate whatever it is. As long as Tesla delivers the final product to customer as promised, who really cares ?

Frankly many experts have tried to decipher certain Tesla processes and procedures and haven’t been successful. It is what it is. But one thing for sure, they keep everyone guessing of how they can do things in such unconvential ways.

 

[Knightshade]

Below I have skipped over the portions that are just un-restrained rants and address only the real points you made that have not been explained numerous times.

You keep saying "explained" when you mean "Made up stuff that makes no sense and for which you have no evidence"

The evidence is straight from the CEO who said they would be burn testing every drive unit and only the best ones would be used in Performance models.

You mean the same guy who told us he'd do a coast to coast FSD drive in 2017, then again in 2018....or the same one who told us new color would be NOT pearl white?

Elon says stuff all the time ahead of actually talking to real engineers who then tell him he's wrong.

Even then, all he actually said was they were lot sorting (binning)

Which lots of companies do.

In all cases when they find a substantive difference in capability they use a different PN to indicate that- and when they do not find one- they don't.

Tesla didn't use a different PN, which means all available actual evidence says they found no substantive difference in capability.

You can choose to disbelieve him but I haven't seen a shred of evidence it's not true.

Yes, you have, you just refuse to accept it.

all the evidence says he's wrong in fact.

Same PN. AWD cars at delivery being flashed to P3D- cars by the dealer and/or OTA both last year and this year.

The ENTIRELY of the actual evidence.

I think you are missing the relevant point that there are more drive units that meet the Performance standard than demand for that model. So some Performance capable drive units are sold as AWD. This means some AWD get a "P" drive unit for the same price as one that doesn't test good enough to safely handle the extra current.

Not missing it- it's just not relevant.

They can still give the "P spec" units their own PN, and set the system to allow for EITHER PN to go into an AWD, but only the P PN to go into a P.

That would make far more sense and be much easier to do than your idea about using only a single PN for everything and SOMEHOW "knowing" which part of the same PN to use when building or repairing a car.

Irrelevant. They knew there would be a public parts catalog

How'd they know that?

The public catalog came many months later as a result of right-to-repair laws that didnt' exist when they developed the 3.

Once again you seem to be making up excuses to support your narrative with 0 evidence.

I didn't say they are not physically swappable into either car, I said they kept track of the highest sigma drive units and reserved those for the P models. The benefit is reduced warranty expense.

Wait, so now your story is all drive units even those in 100% of AWD cars work in a P?

That's the opposite of your entire narrative so far about why they "can't" do a P unlock on some cars.

They want the flexibility to use the Performance spec drive unit in AWD Models depending upon current demand ratio between the various models.

Which is easily done with 2 different PNs by listing one as an alternative to the other for the AWD BOM, without then screwing up supply chain and repair issues by NOT having different PNs.

(you do know what a BOM is right? if not you probably shouldn't be trying to discuss manufacturing processes)

And they don't want to be sending some AWD's out there with Performance part numbers because that would be a slap in the face to those AWD purchasers who paid the same amount but got a lesser drive unit.

But you just told us they're NOT "lesser" units and they are physically swapping into Ps.

If you're gonna make up fiction at least try and keep the story straight yeah?

If they accidentally put an AWD drive unit in a Performance Model, it probably wouldn't be the end of the world but, over hundreds of thousands of products, it would cause a higher failure rate if the drive units testing with the lowest sigma went into Performance models

I'm starting to think you don't even understand what "lowest sigma" means and are just saying it because Elon did?

 

[Knightshade]

Tesla has a parts inventory system that works on this modern thing called a "computer".

It's absolutely trivial to flag certain serial numbers.

How does that help when the SC mechanic goes to the parts room and pulls a drive unit by PN?


Know what WOULD help if they were actual different in any relevant way?

A different PN.

 

[StealthP3D]

Wait, so now your story is all drive units even those in 100% of AWD cars work in a P? That's the opposite of your entire narrative so far about why they "can't" do a P unlock on some cars.

No, my story has not ever changed, apparently, you never understood it.

The P and AWD drive units are the same part, they just test out differently. I thought you understood that. Tesla puts the better ones in the P and the rest (which include some of the better ones) go into the AWD.

Any drive unit will work in either car, but the lower spec units would have a higher chance of failing (if for example they were put in a P3D and run as hard as possible).

I hope I cleared that up for you.

 

[Knightshade]

No, my story has not ever changed, apparently, you never understood it.

The P and AWD drive units are the same part, they just test out differently. I thought you understood that. Tesla puts the better ones in the P and the rest (which include some of the better ones) go into the AWD.

But you keep having no evidence to support this claim- and a lot of evidence that contradicts it, and literally your only response is to repeat Elons pre-production tweet that doesn't address the PN issue numerous people have tried explaining to you.

Which do you think Tesla would prefer:

A system where their own manufacturing, supply chain, and repair chain, work accurately and efficently and don't make easy to avoid mistakes?

A system where none of that is true, MFG has added complexity since they can't rely on PNs for BOMs, supply chain and repair chain has added complexity for the same reason and ALSO because they can't trust the stamped PN on the shelf.... but it's ok because otherwise people who look in a parts catalog that didn't even exist when they made this decision might get annoyed if they knew what to look for?


That first one-the one from a sane world- if there was any actual difference they'd use different PNs. Which they don't.

You appear to go with door #2 though. While not explaining why the "customers might complain if they have a different PN" isn't true of all the OTHER examples where Tesla CHANGED THE PN to indicate a difference in part like the RWD suspension (or seats or anything else they've changed over time where they ALWAYS USE A DIFFERENT PN)

Why are DUs magically not like all other parts in that regard?

 

[one4spl]

And as much as one guy on YouTube showed the motors are labelled the same was there any evidence the inverters are the same part? I'd expect them to have more transistors in them to handle the much higher peak current.

 

[Knightshade]

And as much as one guy on YouTube showed the motors are labelled the same was there any evidence the inverters are the same part? I'd expect them to have more transistors in them to handle the much higher peak current.

The inverter is inside the DU. If they have the same DU PN (they do) then the inverter is the same part in both too.


Again this is kind of the entire reason to even have part numbers.