Major Phantom Braking Issues

[enemji]

For some jobs, a monkey could do it better than a human.

It's very simple: TACC doesn't work where I live. Give me an option to utilize cruise control without TACC, at least until (maybe some day) they sort out TACC for ALL LOCATIONS AND CONDITIONS.

Funny I never had these issues when my radar was active.... But radar did have it's own issues in other locations and conditions, just never for me.

I agree with your sentiment.

The reality is that businesses are changing. The new approach is trying to provide a solution for which the standard cruise control was not capable of i.e cruise control in city traffic and Navigate too.

The old cruise control was like a 747, and the new AP is like an F16. One is stable and comfortable, the other is agile. There is no way one can do what the other can. It is just a different approach and solution, that is until they come up with a brilliant idea that can do both without complicating the solution. Then maybe we have an average product that is not good at either .

The old cruise control logic was simple: Keep going if nothing is detected. This means if your road runs into a ravine, so will you.

The new approach is: Keep going as long as you can make sure we are safe. This means in the situation where is is no referential data such such other vehicles or landmarks or road signs, it will stop due to “ lack of enough information to make a decision”.

 

[sandman1330]

I agree with your sentiment.

The reality is that businesses are changing. The new approach is trying to provide a solution for which the standard cruise control was not capable of i.e cruise control in city traffic.

The old cruise control was like a 747, and the new AP is like an F16. One is stable and comfortable, the other is agile. There is no way one can do what the other can. It is just a different approach and solution, that is until they come up with a brilliant idea that can do both without complicating the solution. Then maybe we have an average product that is not good at either .

Ha yup, fair enough!

The thing is, there's no good reason they can't just have a tick box. We have options for follow distance, lane change aggressiveness, etc. Under the TACC tab in options, just have an option to disable TACC. Obviously once autosteer / autopilot / FSD are engaged, this setting would be ignored - would just be for TACC.

All my other cars that have had adaptive cruise control had the option to disable the "adaptive" part of the cruise...

 

[enemji]

Ha yup, fair enough!

The thing is, there's no good reason they can't just have a tick box. We have options for follow distance, lane change aggressiveness, etc. Under the TACC tab in options, just have an option to disable TACC. Obviously once autosteer / autopilot / FSD are engaged, this setting would be ignored - would just be for TACC.

All my other cars that have had adaptive cruise control had the option to disable the "adaptive" part of the cruise...

The tick box would not be able to provide since the current logic is “safety first”. They will not deviate from that.

 

[sandman1330]

The tick box would not be able to provide since the current logic is “safety first”. They will not deviate from that.

I have a more pessimistic view. They won’t do it because it will mean admitting they can’t even do adaptive cruise control right with vision only, let alone ever getting to level 4/5/robotaxi…

There’s nothing safe about slamming the brakes on a highway for no reason either

 

[sandman1330]

I discovered something new today.

TACC will slam on the brakes if you are approaching a turn in the nav system but don't slow down to take that turn. And it waits till the last minute, so it's a HARD slam on the brakes, right down to 0.

This morning, I forgot something and had to turn around. I left work set in the nav system as it was only 5mins back to the house, and activated just TACC. The car then proceeded to slam on the brakes at every intersection (hard, from 110km/h right down to 0, I let it do it once for experimental purposes since there was no-one behind me).

After a couple times, I realized it was doing it where the nav system was trying to re-route me to turn around back towards work.

This was just TACC - no autosteer, no FSDb, nothing. Just TACC. I think it's new behaviour in FSDb V11, as I never saw this happen before.

I genuinely believe the issues with TACC are rooted in FSD. Their mentality is that TACC is a subset of FSD, where I personally believe it should be a separate entity. TACC needs to remain just a driver assist (yes I know FSD is just a driver assist now, but we all know Tesla wants it to be more). As it stands right now we have nothing between completely driving ourselves and FSD. TACC is trying to be too smart. Just let cruise control be cruise control.

 

[enemji]

I have a more pessimistic view. They won’t do it because it will mean admitting they can’t even do adaptive cruise control right with vision only, let alone ever getting to level 4/5/robotaxi…

There’s nothing safe about slamming the brakes on a highway for no reason either

what you want is very simple: Keep driving if you see nothing. But that also means that it will drive you off a cliff into a ravine.

 

[enemji]

Phantom braking is better than real collisions.

Absolutely!

 

[sandman1330]

what you want is very simple: Keep driving if you see nothing. But that also means that it will drive you off a cliff into a ravine.

I'm OK with that. Because I pay attention when I'm driving. I've managed to drive over 20yrs without getting in an accident or driving over a cliff, much of that time on dumb cruise control. I think I can handle it.

I'd like to see the statistics over the last 40 or so years that cars have come with dumb cruise control and see how many cases there were of people driving themselves off cliffs. I'm sure the cases exist, but if someone is not paying attention and is going to drive themselves off a cliff on cruise control they'd just as happily do it without cruise as well.

I just want my Tesla to stop trying to babysit me. I'm a big boy.

 

[enemji]

I'm OK with that. Because I pay attention when I'm driving.

Mass production cars are made for masses, and not for exceptional cases.

 

[sandman1330]

Mass production cars are made for masses, and not for exceptional cases.

Again though, where are the stats that say normal cruise control has been a deathtrap for the last 40yrs? It's not broken.... why do we need to fix it?

 

[stopcrazypp]

Again though, where are the stats that say normal cruise control has been a deathtrap for the last 40yrs? It's not broken.... why do we need to fix it?

Because people's standards have changed. It seems most people nowadays expect the car to baby them (or at least enough that even NHTSA is expecting things like the car to react to emergency vehicles partially in lane).

There's been people that called for a dumb cruise control mode, but there has been various speculation (some discussed already upthread) why Tesla doesn't have one (in any car with AP) and has no plans to add it.

 

[sandman1330]

Because people's standards have changed. It seems most people nowadays expect the car to baby them (or at least enough that even NHTSA is expecting things like the car to react to emergency vehicles partially in lane).

NHTSA only expects the car to react to emergency vehicles when on autopilot... If they required it on normal cruise control it would have to apply to all manufacturers.

 

[Altes]

Im on a similar version, no phantom breaks so far, seems like a lot of folks have it though. There’s an NHTSA investigation ongoing, hopefully Tesla can get it fixed.

Right after they finish the latest entertainment games, fix the "auto" wipers, and create more new fart noises

 

[enemji]

Again though, where are the stats that say normal cruise control has been a deathtrap for the last 40yrs? It's not broken.... why do we need to fix it?

Horse carriage was also doing good. Why did we switch to automobiles?

 

[enemji]

why Tesla doesn't have one (in any car with AP) and has no plans to add it.

It seems some people on one hand want their kid to be smarter than Einstein but be dumb as a hick from the countryside.

 

[sandman1330]

Horse carriage was also doing good. Why did we switch to automobiles?

Automobiles are vastly superior in (almost) every way. Electric cars are vastly superior to ICE cars in (almost) every way too.

FSD / TACC isn't - at least not yet. I don't even buy that it's marginally safer than regular cruise, let along vastly. It just isn't there yet.

Funny you use that as an example though - You say this is all about safety. Automobiles, especially early automobiles, are many many many times less safe than horse carriages. How many high speed pileups occurred in horse carriages? Safety isn't the only reason we move forward. Even if I were to grant that TACC is safer (I don't, not yet), it's inferior in many other ways, general driving comfort being not the least of them.

 

[enemji]

Automobiles are vastly superior in (almost) every way. Electric cars are vastly superior to ICE cars in (almost) every way too.

FSD / TACC isn't - at least not yet. I don't even buy that it's marginally safer than regular cruise, let along vastly. It just isn't there yet.

Funny you use that as an example though - You say this is all about safety. Automobiles, especially early automobiles, are many many many times less safe than horse carriages. How many high speed pileups occurred in horse carriages? Safety isn't the only reason we move forward. Even if I were to grant that TACC is safer (I don't, not yet), it's inferior in many other ways, general driving comfort being not the least of them.

Superiority did not come overnight. Please stop having Great Expectations result in Greater Disappointments.

 

[enemji]

Automobiles, especially early automobiles, are many many many times less safe than horse carriages. How many high speed pileups occurred in horse carriages? Safety isn't the only reason we move forward.

But it seems you re disappointed when safety has become the priority

 

[Battpower]

I'd have to say there is no evidence for any software version having any effect on this problem.

Late to this particular pb thread. Only just started reading, but I have to give a big YES to this ^^^^

I'm stuck on last fw with radar enabled. In all the many prior updates, I kept thinking there was some consistent change in behavior, but eventually the same old issues recur. Since I stopped updating, my experience is the same! Keep thinking that behavior changes.

 

[clydeiii]

They still didn't fix one of the most annoying phantom braking issues for me which is slamming the brakes whenever the car sees a blinking yellow light, of which there are many around here on speed limit signs etc.. quite sketchy on the highway. I've basically stopped using it.

I only one one blinking yellow on my commute and it slows a few MPH for it each time. 11.3.6. So perhaps there is hope yet for you.