Mandatory Autopilot Training + Refresher Training?

[voip-ninja]

If we had had a rash of AP-related crashes, then the NHTSA would just ban the tech or require changes. Since we haven't, there's no need for changes. We've actually already seen a reduction in crashes.

Exactly.

Even countries with extremely strict driver requirements have nothing even remotely like what the OP and a couple of others have proposed for actively piloting a 3,000 pound guided missile at highway speeds.... a.k.a, driving a modern car on the autobahn.

If I have to get the equivalent of an industry certificate to operate & monitor an AP system and have to re-up my certificate on a regular basis, so that I might tightly monitor the behavior of this autonomous system, then what the hell is the point? I might as well just drive the car.

Just another example of those who love over-regulation and big government.

There is no reason that autonomous systems can't safely navigate a passenger car to and from a destination with no interaction from the passenger.... for that matter the passenger could be drunk or sleeping and the vehicle could make the trip safely.

In the event of a malfunction or crisis the system could bring the vehicle to a safe stop and alert the occupant(s) that some manual action needs to be taken on their part.

Manufacturers have every motivation for making sure this is as close to perfect as possible since they are probably on the hook from a liability perspective if their AP software gets someone killed.

 

[S90Dan]

I am a commercial pilot with fixed wing and rotorcraft ratings. Recurrent training is what has kept me alive.

The required flight review, Instrument competency checks et cetera for aircraft just don"t translate well into the coming semiautonomous cars.
I think a good "Cockpit" Simulator for these new car systems is a good idea. Procedure training in Aviation is done in simulators today. The expense for manufacturers to provide simulators is doable, and probably sells more cars to boot.

Legislation is a blunt instrument and I do not favor this approach.

Certified ground instructors are also worth considering. The average sales advisor is not going have the skills to teach procedures.
Let the manufacturers do the certification, they have a vested interest in keeping their customers safe and informed.

 

[cgiGuy]

How is the use of an AP system where the car is supposed to drive itself more dangerous and sophisticated than the act of piloting the automobile directly?

This question is actually a good example of why we need some kind of training. The car does not drive itself. When people who are new to the car think that (maybe because they read it on a forum somewhere) they let the car run into things.. like police motorcycles, parked cars, 13 wooden stakes on the side of the road, etc.

There will always be people who "get it." But the training needs to be geared towards the lowest common denominator. At least until FSD is here.

EDIT- And, again, I'm not agreeing with mandatory certifications. I'm agreeing with training that needs to take place before you're allowed to drive it off Tesla property.

 

[CarlitoDoc]

Here is my two cents: In Germany, getting a driver's license is a "privilege" and it comes at great cost and with lots of "training" (and if you screw up....its gone for good). In many other countries (including the US), getting a driver's license is just a right of passage, and happens after age 16.

 

[voip-ninja]

This question is actually a good example of why we need some kind of training. The car does not drive itself. When people who are new to the car think that (maybe because they read it on a forum somewhere) they let the car run into things.. like police motorcycles, parked cars, 13 wooden stakes on the side of the road, etc.

There will always be people who "get it." But the training needs to be geared towards the lowest common denominator. At least until FSD is here.

EDIT- And, again, I'm not agreeing with mandatory certifications. I'm agreeing with training that needs to take place before you're allowed to drive it off Tesla property.

I don't think you understand what AP4 and AP5 look like.

Elon Musk clarifies Tesla’s plan for level 5 fully autonomous driving: 2 years away from sleeping in the car

Explain how you can "sleep in the car" and have to worry about hitting parked motorcycles?

Elon says we'll have this capability in about 2 years assuming that regulatory approvals are granted.

 

[cgiGuy]

I don't think you understand what AP4 and AP5 look like.

Elon Musk clarifies Tesla’s plan for level 5 fully autonomous driving: 2 years away from sleeping in the car

Explain how you can "sleep in the car" and have to worry about hitting parked motorcycles?

Elon says we'll have this capability in about 2 years assuming that regulatory approvals are granted.

You're right.. I don't understand what AP4 and AP5 look like, since those aren't things. I'm not recommending training for what we might have in 2 years (unlikely, though, based on the pace of getting level 2 working flawlessly). I'm talking about now and the foreseeable future, where people will buy half a million cars that are not FSD, yet.

 

[voip-ninja]

You're right.. I don't understand what AP4 and AP5 look like, since those aren't things. I'm not recommending training for what we might have in 2 years (unlikely, though, based on the pace of getting level 2 working flawlessly). I'm talking about now and the foreseeable future, where people will buy half a million cars that are not FSD, yet.

There's a technology solution to this which is to have the AP alert the driver if they are detected to be disengaging from the driving process. This can be done with cameras, tracking of driver hands on wheel, etc. If the driver continues to ignore the AP and wants to play their PS Vita or read Facebook than the AP can force disengage by pulling the car over.

I don't know that a pilot type certification is needed for this and if anything will turn 95% of the population off from the technology and kill it in it's infancy.

Also, FWIW, AP3/4 tech already exists it's just not ready for public consumption.

 

[cgiGuy]

While I think mandatory testing is unlikely, I think it would be very valuable to REQUIRE new owners to sit for a 10 minute video presentation or CBT on AP before they are allowed to take possession of the car.

EDIT- And, again, I'm not agreeing with mandatory certifications. I'm agreeing with training that needs to take place before you're allowed to drive it off Tesla property.

I don't know that a pilot type certification is needed for this and if anything will turn 95% of the population off from the technology and kill it in it's infancy.

What are we arguing about, again?

 

[voip-ninja]

What are we arguing about, again?

We're arguing that you shouldn't be allowed to drive the car off the Tesla lot without attending some kind of mandatory training on the autopilot.

 

[N5329K]

What are we arguing about, again?
About whether the Tesla UI is safe or prone to potentially fatal user error, and whether driver's training specific to it is called for.
Of course, once the pedals and steering wheel goes, there will be no need for driver training at all.
Robin

 

[cgiGuy]

We're arguing that you shouldn't be allowed to drive the car off the Tesla lot without attending some kind of mandatory training on the autopilot.

Oh.. ok. I didn't realize that was synonymous with a "pilot type certification."

 

[alseTrick]

I'm cool with initial training - especially as cars hit level 3 autonomy, but not monthly testing.

 

[calisnow]

I'm a senior reactor operator. I seriously agree. Personally I think regular driving exams should be performed when you get your license renewed, but I absolutely think there should be a rating on your license for automation.

One of the biggest challenges when you have automatic control systems is being vigilant to identify when they fail and to take prompt (and correct) actions to stabilize the event and mitigate potential consequences. It's something we train on once every 6 weeks in the simulator to make sure we don't get into that mental lull from day to day operation where everything typically works correctly.

I think having some type of license rating will minimize the number of incidents where someone fails to recognize the autopilot system is malfunctioning and stop the blind trust in the system that leads to some of the dashcam accidents we see.

Just my opinion. I know a car isn't a nuclear reactor, but the basic principle about relying on your control systems is the same.

Again, afaik you have zero experience with autopilot - which has no correlation to operating a nuclear reactor lol. It's steering folks. It works or it doesn't. Look st the road. Take over if it fails. There is no class material you could teach lol.

 

[voip-ninja]

Oh.. ok. I didn't realize that was synonymous with a "pilot type certification."

I'm arguing both that a certification and a mandatory "training before you can leave the lot " are counter-productive.

Should there be a 10 minute tutorial about autopilot that can only be done while the vehicle is parked and before the AP can be activated?

Sure.

 

[calisnow]

I am a commercial pilot with fixed wing and rotorcraft ratings. Recurrent training is what has kept me alive.

The required flight review, Instrument competency checks et cetera for aircraft just don"t translate well into the coming semiautonomous cars.
I think a good "Cockpit" Simulator for these new car systems is a good idea. Procedure training in Aviation is done in simulators today. The expense for manufacturers to provide simulators is doable, and probably sells more cars to boot.

Legislation is a blunt instrument and I do not favor this approach.

Certified ground instructors are also worth considering. The average sales advisor is not going have the skills to teach procedures.
Let the manufacturers do the certification, they have a vested interest in keeping their customers safe and informed.

Very sorry but you are ignorant on this issue. The data shows autopilot seriously reduces accidents and there are no classes for it. When you take delivery you get a drive with the specialist and they show you how to use it. There is nothing to teach. One reason aviation is dying is because small GA planes have such stupidly complex control and comm systems that the public has rightly shunned GA. Tesla autopilot does not need a class lol. Tap it on the car steers. Tap off it doesn't. Hit brakes or steering wheel you're in control. Notice the people advocating for this have zero experience using autopilot and come from fields that have no applicability to this case. The only thing they have in common is automation. Again - you make no sense - saying the person driving manual is ok by the person doing less work needs more training. This is totally illogical.

 

[dsvick]

Why is operating a car using EAP more difficult than driving it manually? Ok, I'll give in a little bit, until we have FSD maybe there should be some warnings about the driver remaining alert and ready to take over at any time, or maybe something about not taking your hands off the wheel for an extended amount of time, maybe the car could give you a warning if you leave your hands off for too long ....

When we have level 5 FSD then, by definition, there will be no training required.

 

[Mishakim]

Two thoughts: One, I've heard that many years ago if you took your test on an automatic transmission, you wouldn't be licensed drive a manual. I've also heard that if you arrived at the testing center in a manual, you had to take the test on it. I'd guess that the former is an urban myth based on the latter, and there was no actual "transmission type" rating on licenses. Can anyone confirm or deny either (I did not experience either of these in the 90's, taking the test on an automatic)?

As for the current situation, I think it's much more likely that in a few years, there will be a lower-rated license that qualifies one to drive only level 4 cars, and an extra rating will be needed to drive non-autonomous, not the other way around. But maybe not - if we really get level 5 soon, then people without a license can just ride in those, and you'll only need a license if you actually want to drive.

 

[WileyTheMan]

Two thoughts: One, I've heard that many years ago if you took your test on an automatic transmission, you wouldn't be licensed drive a manual. I've also heard that if you arrived at the testing center in a manual, you had to take the test on it. I'd guess that the former is an urban myth based on the latter, and there was no actual "transmission type" rating on licenses. Can anyone confirm or deny either (I did not experience either of these in the 90's, taking the test on an automatic)?

Nothing like that in the 80s.

Anyway, making a driver certification specifically for an automated driving system (semi-automated or not) makes no sense to me. If there were a rash of accidents caused by Tesla's autopilot (many reported, but very few proven), I would say there would be concern, but at that point it's about the deficiencies of the product, not the driving skills of the operator.

 

[cgiGuy]

I'm arguing both that a certification and a mandatory "training before you can leave the lot " are counter-productive.

Should there be a 10 minute tutorial about autopilot that can only be done while the vehicle is parked and before the AP can be activated?

Sure.

So your main beef now is where the training takes place? I'm out...
[BTW- You've now probably spent more than 10 minutes on these replies.. but who's got that kind of time?]

 

[alseTrick]

Here is my two cents: In Germany, getting a driver's license is a "privilege" and it comes at great cost and with lots of "training" (and if you screw up....its gone for good). In many other countries (including the US), getting a driver's license is just a right of passage, and happens after age 16.

I would rather the US be like Germany in this regard.