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JRP3
Hyperactive Member
I'd say the people voting for Sanders are obviously those who think the corporate Dems are part of the problem. That counts as "many" to me.
The problem is that the last four years have not been all that horrible, certainly better than I ever expected. Some people have done quite well, I'd suspect for most it's been pretty much business as usual, good and bad. Make no mistake, I think Trump is a horrible President and unfit to serve, but in spite of himself the country has managed to forge ahead.
adiggs
Well-Known Member
Worth adding, I don't regret the vote in the slightest. My vote isn't owned or owed to anybody - it needs to be earned. And Hillary didn't earn it. My vote wasn't a vote AGAINST the dems or Hillary - I just had a candidate and a cause that I believed in and wanted to vote for. It was a novel experience
And I get that you're not blaming me. I'm also, like most of the country, living in a state where the outcome is effectively foreordained. It wouldn't matter if it were a red or blue state - my vote won't swing my state or even contribute to a conversation one way or the other. That's another thing I love about our political system (/s) - I can be confident that the presidential election will go by, and our state won't see either candidate in person, and possibly won't see a presidential related political ad.
Now that I think about it, I kinda do like that very last dynamic (as opposed to being bombarded by ads).
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
My own situation: Alaska is one of the very very last states that will send any electoral college votes to a Democratic nominee. But I am one of the very very last voters who will not be voting just because of that.
Regarding the debate about voting for the lesser evil:
I do agree with you that voting for the lesser of two evils is of course better than not voting at all and thus enabling the more evil option. Especially considering the current situation with the Supreme Court.
However, I do also understand the people that have a hard time doing so.
- The democratic party is now asking young people to vote for a candidate that literally has no empathy for any of their current struggles. To vote for the very person that helped to intensify the student loan crisis that so many of them are in because he took money from the credit card industry.
- They are asking people who despise Washington and think politicians don't care about their lives to vote for a person who literally said that nothing will fundamentally change.
- They are asking for people that have to ration their medicine and can't afford to go to a doctor to vote for someone that, even if a single-payer program would pass the house and senate, would not let it pass.
- They are asking blue-collar workers who saw their friends, family, and maybe even themselves lose their jobs due to various trade agreements to vote for a champion of those trade agreements.
- They are asking people who had to see their loved ones die in the Iraq war, just like those deeply hurt veterans here, to vote for one of the biggest champion of that war.
Again, those reasons should not justify voting for someone/not voting which leads to an even worse outcome, I agree with you all. But I don't think it's only stupidity and/or privilege that leads people not to vote for the lesser of two evils. It is also a sense of betrayal and hopelessness
I do agree with you that voting for the lesser of two evils is of course better than not voting at all and thus enabling the more evil option. Especially considering the current situation with the Supreme Court.
However, I do also understand the people that have a hard time doing so.
- The democratic party is now asking young people to vote for a candidate that literally has no empathy for any of their current struggles. To vote for the very person that helped to intensify the student loan crisis that so many of them are in because he took money from the credit card industry.
- They are asking people who despise Washington and think politicians don't care about their lives to vote for a person who literally said that nothing will fundamentally change.
- They are asking for people that have to ration their medicine and can't afford to go to a doctor to vote for someone that, even if a single-payer program would pass the house and senate, would not let it pass.
- They are asking blue-collar workers who saw their friends, family, and maybe even themselves lose their jobs due to various trade agreements to vote for a champion of those trade agreements.
- They are asking people who had to see their loved ones die in the Iraq war, just like those deeply hurt veterans here, to vote for one of the biggest champion of that war.
Again, those reasons should not justify voting for someone/not voting which leads to an even worse outcome, I agree with you all. But I don't think it's only stupidity and/or privilege that leads people not to vote for the lesser of two evils. It is also a sense of betrayal and hopelessness
RIGHT?!?! I regretted my green party vote too ... until I realized that I live in California, so my vote really didn't matter either way. This distinction only applies to the swing states.
adiggs
Well-Known Member
Maybe one difference is that I don't regret my vote. Maybe that means I'm a stick-in-the-mud naive optimist about how things should work, and I should just get with the program and vote for one of the 2 major parties or the other. I've decided that for me, whoever I vote for will need to earn my vote.
And I was happy to see Oregon sign onto the National Popular Vote Compact. I'd like to see enough of the rest of the country sign on - we might see a presidential candidate in the state then.
Almost guaranteed to be either started or perpetuated by Russians. The Russians and Republicans only play to keep Trump in office is to fatally divide the opposition.
Thinking another 4 years of Trump would be survivable is very dangerous. I strongly suggest reading On Tyranny
https://www.amazon.com/Tyranny-Twen...1_1?keywords=on+tyranny&qid=1583975487&sr=8-1
I have a strong stomach for this sort of thing and I couldn't finish the book. I started reading it in 2018 and so much of what it said was happening then I got physically ill reading it.
Countries with rule of law only have rule of law as long as enough people support it. Trump and quite a few Republicans are currently actively trying to break the rule of law in the US and given another 4 years they are almost certain to succeed. For one thing it's unlikely Ruth Bader Ginsberg will live to 2025 and Trump/McConnell have been doing everything they can to pack the courts from trial to the Supremes with judges favorable to this anti-democracy agenda.
The Republicans are facing a demographic cliff. The people who believe in their agenda are a shrinking part of the population and they need to do something to prevent the other side from getting power and keeping it. There has been talk among the extreme conservatives to go back to the only people who can vote are white males who own land (how it was originally in this country) and retroactively revoking the citizenship of all non-whites. If they control the courts and just want to ignore the law, they can do it and violence will be the only way to stop them.
This election is as serious as a heart attack and anyone who doesn't think so is living in a pre-2016 mindset. Trump changed the very fabric of American politics and this election is about whether we go back to the pre-2016 politics or go down the rabbit hole of destruction like Nazi Germany did. I'm a student of history and the rise of Donald Trump is way too much like the rise of Adolf Hitler to be comfortable. The only thing that has saved us is we have 240 years of institutions he can't break overnight. Hitler only had a 12 year old constitution to break.
My SO's slogan:
MACA - Make American Calm Again!
There are two problems here. There is the corruption of the system from multinational corporations and there is corruption of the very fabric of government. The Republicans are complicit on both, the Democrats are guilty of being complicit of the former, but only rarely the latter (in modern times). The corruption of the fabric of our government is so bad right now, that is the #1 priority of this election. Not that the corporate corruption isn't bad, it becomes a moot point if Trump manages to completely break the government and turn the US into a dictatorship. Then reigning in corporate power will become impossible until the tyrants are defeated, or we sink into oblivion.
The question of this election is whether the US will continue to be a functional democracy or if it will effectively become a dictatorship. I know people exaggerate a lot online. But I've studied history my entire life and I never compared any modern figure to Hitler or the Nazis until the last few years (though I did point out there was a lot of fascist ideas in the GW Bush administration, but Nazism is the most extreme form of fascism).
Why is Russia going to war against the US shale industry if Putin wants Trump reelected? That kind of financial impact could sink Trump alone.
Totally agree. FWIW I taught about dictatorships at the college and university level for decades. In later years used Robert Bellah, et al., Habits of the Heart and derivative versions in Government 1. Those U.C. sociologists made the key point that democracy requires paying attention. We have lost that capacity since Reagan. Bear in mind he was an FBI informant while president of the actor's union, keeping an eye on those commies in Holywood, and then honed his credentials as a paid performer for GE spreading a pro business theology for years on the lecture circuit until running for elected office.
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JRP3
Hyperactive Member
I'm afraid you aren't in touch with some of the more radical progressives. There is a lot of anger over the way the corporate Dems have obviously manipulated the process all along the way only to give us a candidate who's so weak they are hiding him from the media and trying to get debates canceled so people can't see how bad he is.
Did you not see how Trump tried to save shale, just like how he tried to save coal? The economy will be fine due to the massive move to renewables. Shale will die, and Trump will look the hero for trying to save their american jobs. Looks like a win-win for Putin.
A shale bust will bankrupt the banks which will be a repeat of 2008 all but guaranteeing a Trump loss in November.
Norbert
TSLA will win
Don't know about shale "wars", but Russia's priority is probably Russia and T not even second. That's T serving R and not R serving T.
Yet Trump is the one that forced Putin to do this by increasing domestic oil production and hurting Russia's oil industry's market share.
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Norbert
TSLA will win
That's a case where T had to outdo Obama. He compensated by putting the brakes on the move away from fossil fuels. So to speak.
The amount of mental gymnastics to keep the Russia hoax alive still amazes me.
Bloomberg has more money than the Russian government's entire budget yet he can't buy a presidency but Putin can?
Norbert
TSLA will win
I wouldn't say those are the primary motivators, just that's how things fit together in a plain and straightforward way.
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